Hi all,

Maybe this has past the list a couple of times (just like the 'storing
images in a DB' question).

What I'm after is a framework that is simple, solid, compact and
flexible enough to extend by myself.

I'm not an OOP person. But I do use classes when I think they fit a
purpose. But most of all I want a framework that has the wheels I don't
want to reinvent myself but do make sense to have.

Like:
- Informative error-handling
- DB layer, not too abstract please
- Form handling
- etc.

What is a good framework to start with? What framework doesn't make it
too complex that it says it gives you RAD but actually let's you sink in
code?

I don't have to develop enterprise stuff. I want to manage information
for myself and maybe build a blog or whatever to play with. What let's
build things quick so you can focus on things to test instead in
building the surrounding elements?

Again, maybe I've to dive into archives etc. But that doesn't give me
answers I need I guess.

Thanks in advance.

Aschwin Wesselius

On 3/12/08, Aschwin Wesselius <aschwin@illuminated.nl> wrote:
> What I'm after is a framework that is simple, solid, compact and
> flexible enough to extend by myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...on_of_features


--
Greg Donald
http://destiney.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aschwin Wesselius [mailto:aschwin@illuminated.nl]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:14 PM
> To: php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: [php] Frameworks
>
> Hi all,
>
> Maybe this has past the list a couple of times (just like the 'storing
> images in a DB' question).
>
> What I'm after is a framework that is simple, solid, compact and
> flexible enough to extend by myself.
>
> I'm not an OOP person. But I do use classes when I think they fit a
> purpose. But most of all I want a framework that has the wheels I don't
> want to reinvent myself but do make sense to have.
>
> Like:
> - Informative error-handling
> - DB layer, not too abstract please
> - Form handling
> - etc.
>
> What is a good framework to start with? What framework doesn't make it
> too complex that it says it gives you RAD but actually let's you sink in
> code?
>
> I don't have to develop enterprise stuff. I want to manage information
> for myself and maybe build a blog or whatever to play with. What let's
> build things quick so you can focus on things to test instead in
> building the surrounding elements?
>
> Again, maybe I've to dive into archives etc. But that doesn't give me
> answers I need I guess.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Aschwin Wesselius

I want a framework I can plug a microphone in, and talk to it, and it does the
job for me (really, I need it). But I guess we are far away from that.

If you need REAL RAD ("a la Delphi"), use VCL for PHP... you'll still have to
write the event handlers (you can't save yourself from coding) and you will have
to stick with Codegear (you are of those who pay for software, right?).

If you are looking for a flexible PHP 5 framework, where each component is more
or less independent of the others, try the Zend Framework.

If you want a lot of features bundled into a big and fat box, and you need PHP 4
support, use CakePHP. Even the way you name database tables will be affected,
but if you eat a piece of the cake you are likely to want it all anyway.

If you want a flexible and easy to use PHP 4 and PHP 5 framework and you are
willing to wait more than six months for each minor release, you can use
CodeIgniter.

If you are rich, you can pay us (the PHP-list members) to build one for you .
It will be a complete disaster because we'll never agree on the features, but
you'll entertain yourself with our discussions for months.

If your IQ is greater than 150 you can try writing your own.

Otherwise, ask Robert Cummings or Manuel Lemos.

Regards,

Rob


Andrés Robinet | Lead Developer | BESTPLACE CORPORATION
5100 Bayview Drive 206, Royal Lauderdale Landings, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33308 |
TEL 954-607-4296| FAX 954-337-2695 |
Email: info@bestplace.net | MSN Chat: best@bestplace.net | SKYPE: bestplace |
Web: bestplace.biz | Web: seo-diy.com

Andrés Robinet wrote:
> I want a framework I can plug a microphone in, and talk to it, and it does the
> job for me (really, I need it). But I guess we are far away from that.
>
You need it? And what happens if you won't get it in a life time?
> If you need REAL RAD ("a la Delphi"), use VCL for PHP... you'll still have to
> write the event handlers (you can't save yourself from coding) and you will have
> to stick with Codegear (you are of those who pay for software, right?).
>
REAL RAD? Is that an acronym or is that emphasis? But no thanks. If I've
paid around 1000 dollars on software, that would be a bit much. And that
must have been a decade ago.
> If you are looking for a flexible PHP 5 framework, where each component is more
> or less independent of the others, try the Zend Framework.
>
That's what is on my list of candidates, yes.
> If you want a lot of features bundled into a big and fat box, and you need PHP 4
> support, use CakePHP. Even the way you name database tables will be affected,
> but if you eat a piece of the cake you are likely to want it all anyway.
>
Wait..... PHP 4? I admit that I don't use all the OOP of PHP 5, but
really I don't let myself be forced to use deprecated software if it is
my income. No, I haven't touched PHP 4 like 3,5 years now.
> If you want a flexible and easy to use PHP 4 and PHP 5 framework and you are
> willing to wait more than six months for each minor release, you can use
> CodeIgniter.
>
Ok, that one is of my list of candidates then.
> If you are rich, you can pay us (the PHP-list members) to build one for you .
> It will be a complete disaster because we'll never agree on the features, but
> you'll entertain yourself with our discussions for months.
>
I think I keep that in mind when I've become rich and lonely and need
some entertainment.
> If your IQ is greater than 150 you can try writing your own.
>
Is IQ really relevant to being capable of writing your own framework?
Ok, an IQ of 70 won't get you advanced software out of your hands. I've
an IQ between 160 and 170 (lost the score along the path somewhere). But
I couldn't be bothered to write my own framework just to invent some
wheels to have a nice ride. It could be a challenge and might even be
rewarding afterwards, but in the mean while it won't get me anywhere. So
much for RAD and then writing your own framework..... Must be kidding ;-)

OK, thanks for your input. Some points are really ful!

Aschwin Wesselius

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aschwin Wesselius [mailto:aschwin@illuminated.nl]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 5:04 PM
> To: Andrés Robinet
> Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [php] Frameworks
>
> Andrés Robinet wrote:
> > I want a framework I can plug a microphone in, and talk to it, and it
> does the
> > job for me (really, I need it). But I guess we are far away from that.
> >
> You need it? And what happens if you won't get it in a life time?
> > If you need REAL RAD ("a la Delphi"), use VCL for PHP... you'll still
> have to
> > write the event handlers (you can't save yourself from coding) and you
> will have
> > to stick with Codegear (you are of those who pay for software, right?).
> >
> REAL RAD? Is that an acronym or is that emphasis? But no thanks. If I've
> paid around 1000 dollars on software, that would be a bit much. And that
> must have been a decade ago.
> > If you are looking for a flexible PHP 5 framework, where each component
> is more
> > or less independent of the others, try the Zend Framework.
> >
> That's what is on my list of candidates, yes.
> > If you want a lot of features bundled into a big and fat box, and you
> need PHP 4
> > support, use CakePHP. Even the way you name database tables will be
> affected,
> > but if you eat a piece of the cake you are likely to want it all anyway.
> >
> Wait..... PHP 4? I admit that I don't use all the OOP of PHP 5, but
> really I don't let myself be forced to use deprecated software if it is
> my income. No, I haven't touched PHP 4 like 3,5 years now.
> > If you want a flexible and easy to use PHP 4 and PHP 5 framework and you
> are
> > willing to wait more than six months for each minor release, you can use
> > CodeIgniter.
> >
> Ok, that one is of my list of candidates then.
> > If you are rich, you can pay us (the PHP-list members) to build one for
> you .
> > It will be a complete disaster because we'll never agree on the features,
> but
> > you'll entertain yourself with our discussions for months.
> >
> I think I keep that in mind when I've become rich and lonely and need
> some entertainment.
> > If your IQ is greater than 150 you can try writing your own.
> >
> Is IQ really relevant to being capable of writing your own framework?
> Ok, an IQ of 70 won't get you advanced software out of your hands. I've
> an IQ between 160 and 170 (lost the score along the path somewhere). But
> I couldn't be bothered to write my own framework just to invent some
> wheels to have a nice ride. It could be a challenge and might even be
> rewarding afterwards, but in the mean while it won't get me anywhere. So
> much for RAD and then writing your own framework..... Must be kidding ;-)
>
> OK, thanks for your input. Some points are really ful!
>
> Aschwin Wesselius

I'm not kidding about the *REAL RAD* thing. RAD is Rapid Application
Development, and I don't think anything can be faster than dragging a button
component on a *form-like* window, then double clicking on it, writing *echo
"Hello World!"* and hit F9. There you are, you got a *Hello world* in some
seconds, no need for special set up, or writing controller/model/view code
whatsoever. However, I wouldn't use Delphi for PHP because it's a proprietary
thing, it's a fat dog and you must pay some REAL bucks for it. And... as soon as
you get more serious with what you want to do, you need to get very close with
the code behind the scenes... which means you have to put much more time and
effort than you would need for a *standard* MVC framework. Sorry, not something
I'm willing to do for a web application. I prefer coding controllers, models and
views. That's also why I'm reactive to sniff into Prado or even QCodo (which I
think disserves some attention to me, because of the underlying *build system*).

Compare that to a ZF component... once you learn it, you can use it wherever you
want (generally), even if you are not using ZF for the MVC part (take
Zend_Http_Client, Zend_Pdf as examples).

Now, take CodeIgniter... I liked it because it had many *out-of-the-box*
features and components. Also, some clients still had PHP 4 and I couldn't do
anything about it. Dealing with it is fairly easy (don't expect cutting-edge
magic out of its components though). I fell in love with rapyd
http://www.rapyd.com/ which is based on CodeIgniter and simplifies most backend
tasks a bunch. But now, rapyd is discontinued (the CI version at least) and we
have kohanaPHP as an alternative (http://kohanaphp.com/). To make it worse,
CodeIgniter took several (I think more than 6) months to upgrade from 1.5.4 to
1.6. Why? Because they rely on integrating it with their commercial *Expression
Engine* product (and they even stated that in their forums). And the
*framework-nightmare* started all over again for me.

Wanna know what I'm planning to do? Embrace the Zend Framework, it's solid, it's
powerful, it's got a company behind and it's still free. And now that PHP 4 has
been discontinued, I have the perfect *excuse* to say NO to whatever project has
PHP 4 for hosting... They upgrade their PHP version, or they take our PHP 5
hosting offer, or they can go elsewhere for a quote. PERIOD.

You must be very careful what framework you choose if it's critical for your
daily work, otherwise you'd better off not picking a framework but building your
own *baby* (reinventing the wheel has the advantage of giving you full control
over the engineering process... you can build a wheel that sucks, but it is
still your wheel and you have full control over it, you know it, and you can
make it better).

And about IQ, I think I got 142 on a test I did long time ago, the normal range
was near 100 (say 90-110 or 80-120, can't remember). I have built some
components of my own, and several function libraries and such... I just inducted
that at least 150 is a good starting point to be able to *put it all together*
in a framework-like fashion, which I couldn't do so far.

I wasn't kidding about Robert or Manuel. Knowledge flows in their veins. Robert
has a framework of his own and Manuel has the (possibly) biggest directory of
stand-alone classes and had developed some *monsters* such as Metabase, long
before PDO was known and adopted.

Anyway... you will get one thousand opinions about Frameworks, and 90% of them
may be correct. Choose the framework you like after playing around with some
examples and having an overview of the reference manual (forgot to say,
documentation is really important to get you started).

Regards,

Rob(inet)


Andrés Robinet | Lead Developer | BESTPLACE CORPORATION
5100 Bayview Drive 206, Royal Lauderdale Landings, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33308 |
TEL 954-607-4296| FAX 954-337-2695 |
Email: info@bestplace.net | MSN Chat: best@bestplace.net | SKYPE: bestplace |
Web: bestplace.biz | Web: seo-diy.com

Andrés Robinet wrote:
> Anyway... you will get one thousand opinions about Frameworks, and 90% of them
> may be correct. Choose the framework you like after playing around with some
> examples and having an overview of the reference manual (forgot to say,
> documentation is really important to get you started).
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob(inet)
>
Thanks again. I think you've set out exactly an opinion I was after. Off
course it all depends on which level one has stepped in, is now and
wants to be when start using a framework.

I've not taken the step to build my own or tested anything as an early
adoptor on any of them. But I see that RAD makes the difference
nowadays. Time is money. People want more features in less time etc. If
I don't get used to a framework very soon, I'm out of business.

I want to do the whole thing. I want an environment that takes a lot of
fuss out of my hands:
- Unit testing, never done it, but sounds reasonable.
- MVC, makes sense but can be interpreted over the top.
- DB abstraction.... The environments I've been in don't switch from
DB's over night, so I don't care.
I wanna see my queries and where they come from, period. I don't need no
fricking querybuilding stuff.
- Form handling. Validation is key. Security is important, so sanitizing
input must be done as early as possible.
- Error handling. Get information back from your code. I need that
together with Unit testing. Should save debugging time.
etc.

Voila, all arguments for a good framework. Zend sounds really a stable
and reliable product. I'm gonna setup a testserver and see how far it goes.

BTW, any people having experience with PHP UnderControl?

Aschwin Wesselius