--- Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
> Lamp Lists wrote:
>
> > now, I didn't have such a big project "on side"
> ever. and I by default
> > ALWAY suck in calculations how much time I need
> for a project and what
> > to charge. I think I need about 120 hrs (3 weeks)
> to build this baby
> > (without design part). I need your opinion. is it
> enough time (yes, I
> > know it depends of how fast I program Let's
> say, average fast )
> > and what are fees these days for such a project? I
> lost track. $75/hr
> > is lowest price today or I can't ask more than
> $50/hr?
>
> You can ask whatever you want as long as your
> customer thinks it's
> reasonable. (not a joke).
That's actually part I'm interested the most What
is reasonable? Is reasonable for sucha project with
complex product catalog and ordering system ask $10K?

> Given that you're an individual bidding on a single
> project, you might
> want to consider fixed price instead of time and
> materials.
I'm not bidding. I did small, simple html web site for
them 3 years ago, with 5 pages. Now they want
something better, with catalog and admin area.
returnig customer

>
> As for estimates wrt time and effort - if those were
> available on a
> mailing-list based on about 30 lines of project
> description, this list
> would be full of project managers, all with
> desperate needs to estimate
> how long <something> takes. :-)
>
>
> /Per Jessen, Zürich
>
Thanks Per


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At 7:06 AM -0800 3/8/08, Lamp Lists wrote:
>
>That's actually part I'm interested the most What
>is reasonable? Is reasonable for sucha project with
>complex product catalog and ordering system ask $10K?

I think that's reasonable, because I've done similar as you described.

I had one client who wanted a site like art.com (don't look now,
because it's screwed) and I submitted a bid of $25k. The client asked
"Isn't that a bit high?" and I relied "They paid $400k for their name
-- you think they went cheap for the back-end?" I didn't get the job.

I tell clients I charge $50 per hour. Most clients don't mind and hire me.

I had one client say "I never pay more than $25 per hour -- you will
accept that?" My answer was "Sure, but it will take me twice as long
to do anything."

The point being that hourly wage doesn't really mean anything. Don't
judge the value of your work on the time it takes you, but rather on
how well your work works.

On most projects, while I make deadlines, I put in many more hours
than I bill out. But then again, I love the work.

Cheers,

tedd
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--- tedd <tedd.sperling@gmail.com> wrote:

> At 7:06 AM -0800 3/8/08, Lamp Lists wrote:
> >
> >That's actually part I'm interested the most
> What
> >is reasonable? Is reasonable for sucha project with
> >complex product catalog and ordering system ask
> $10K?
>
> I think that's reasonable, because I've done similar
> as you described.
>
> I had one client who wanted a site like art.com
> (don't look now,
> because it's screwed) and I submitted a bid of $25k.
> The client asked
> "Isn't that a bit high?" and I relied "They paid
> $400k for their name
> -- you think they went cheap for the back-end?" I
> didn't get the job.
>
> I tell clients I charge $50 per hour. Most clients
> don't mind and hire me.
>
> I had one client say "I never pay more than $25 per
> hour -- you will
> accept that?" My answer was "Sure, but it will take
> me twice as long
> to do anything."
>
> The point being that hourly wage doesn't really mean
> anything. Don't
> judge the value of your work on the time it takes
> you, but rather on
> how well your work works.
>
> On most projects, while I make deadlines, I put in
> many more hours
> than I bill out. But then again, I love the work.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
I needed to hear this
I do not plan to tell the store owner how much hrs I
need and what's my rate. as you said, 100hrs x $50/hr
or 200hrs x $25/hr - it really doesn't matter. I
needed fo myself, to calculate the "worth" of the job.

thanks ted.


-afan

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At 11:12 AM -0500 3/8/08, Bastien Koert wrote:
>The hard part i find is getting the client to scope it out
>correctly. I started a job last year and it was to be a 10-15 page
>site to capture some information. So I contracted for $1500. Now its
>a year later, the client has changed his mind numerous times and the
>scope has explode out over 100 pages, with all sorts of custom
>interaction (if this happens send this email, if that happens send
>another). It has become a real pain and I am definitely not making
>the $75 / hr i initially scoped.
>
>But as tedd mentioned, I too love the work and it s be build
>pieces for future projects
>
>bastien

What we charge and do is not normally discussed on this list. In the
past people have said that doing so is price fixing and all sort of
other negative comments. But, I don't think discussing what's the
going rate and how to get business should be prohibited speech.
However, I could be wrong.

In any event, I have one project at the moment that started out at 25
pages and now exceeds 80 -- and these are not static pages. Every
page is dynamic and uses up to 20 database extractions to pull out
data as needed. None of the pages are simple. Total cost thus far is
in the $5-$10k range.

The client said he wanted a simple face-lift for his site, but he did
not say that it included numerous expressions. What started as a
month project is now almost a year old and continuing in time and
cost.

The biggest problem I've faced with this client is that he thinks he
"knows" html and the answer is using tables and font tags. It's been
maddening to try to get him to understand that his perspective is
dated and is costing him more to create an inferior site than to do
it right. But, I'm making progress in educating him as to what's
possible -- and that's the key.

Normally, I never do a site for less than $1k and that's a static
three page. I used to charge $500 for a 3 page and $50 per month for
hosting, but that became a pain so I stopped doing that. Now, I just
charge per project.

For larger sites ($10k), my design skills are limited - so I
recommend hiring a designer for a minimum of $1k per design! So, the
costs here in developing a real business site are not trivial. This
is not the old "My neighbor's son learned how to do web sites in high
school" project but rather a serious means to increase sales.

My job is to put it all together to make it work right -- meaning to
be consistent with current technologies (i.e., unobtrusive,
validates, accessible, and more more) AND for the site to do what the
client wants and more. I have been known to hire other programmers if
there is something that I don't understand -- you can't know
everything, but be careful how you tell your client that.

The main point here is that most of the work I do is for clients who
make money off the net. Most of it is not creating an Internet
billboard but rather developing a vehicle to increase sales. Some of
my clients have paid as much as $20k for a single Yellow Pages ad, so
they understand that you have to put respectable money into
advertising. Plus, the Internet is a much wider audience with much
greater sales possibilities. I asked one client "Can you handle an
expansion to your sales territory?" That actually killed one deal --
they didn't want to expand.

In any event, web sites/applications are more involved than what
normally meets the layman's eye. Educating your clients as to what
can be can be more important in getting more work than what they
think they need. But, that's my perspective.

Cheers,

tedd

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