On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:42 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> Nathan Nobbe schreef:
> > i like opera for 4 reasons,
> > 1. it renders fast
> > 2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
> > 3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>
>
> undo? undo what?

What you just typed into a form, or erased and decide you actually want,
etc.

Cheers,
Rob.
--
..------------------------------------------------------------.
| InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com |
:------------------------------------------------------------:
| An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting |
| a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services |
| such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn |
| also provides an extremely flexible architecture for |
| creating re-usable components quickly and easily. |
`------------------------------------------------------------'

Mr Webber schreef:
> PHP is a server-side page generator. It has NOTHING to do with the browser.
> The PHP programmer determines the content of the resulting HTML and the
> browser reacts to THAT. Browsers never see a line of PHP script!
>

yes I think Richard knows that. he was asking whether anybody experienced
problems view the PEAR site (i.e. the resulting HTML) with IE6**


** I'd hazard a guess that people have problems viewing any site with IE6
but that's a different topic ;-)

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Heyes [mailto:richardh@phpguru.org]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:42 AM
> To: PHP General List
> Subject: [php] PEAR website and MSIE 6
>
> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
> for me.
>
> http://pear.php.net
>
> Thanks.
>

Robert Cummings schreef:
> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:42 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
>> Nathan Nobbe schreef:
>>> i like opera for 4 reasons,
>>> 1. it renders fast
>>> 2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
>>> 3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>
>> undo? undo what?
>
> What you just typed into a form, or erased and decide you actually want,
> etc.

FF does that - at least it does for me, has done for as long as I can remember.

>
> Cheers,
> Rob.

Robert Cummings schreef:
> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:02 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:

....

> Would you believe me if I said I wasn't in IT? My wife isn't in IT,
> but she uses Opera regularly, she likes it's speed and the way it zooms.
> My 4 year old son loves Opera, but he doesn't know anything else yet
> He likes it when I jump on google images and do searches for things like
> "dinosaurs", "solar system", "trucks", etc. Then he browses through the
> results. of course, he also only knows Linux so far. He can happily
> navigate folders and menus. The icons determine his interest level
> since he can't read very well just yet.

great story. :-) my 4yo mostly likes trains and stuff - but he kind of
expects the images to browse by themselves (which they do when you slideshow them ;-).

I try to steer him away from tech crap, trying to get him to grok a piano
keyboard before a PC one. and no TV either.


>
> Cheers,
> Rob.

On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 19:03 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> Robert Cummings schreef:
> > On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:42 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> >> Nathan Nobbe schreef:
> >>> i like opera for 4 reasons,
> >>> 1. it renders fast
> >>> 2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
> >>> 3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>
> >> undo? undo what?
> >
> > What you just typed into a form, or erased and decide you actually want,
> > etc.
>
> FF does that - at least it does for me, has done for as long as I can remember.

I didn't say it didn't. You said "undo? undo what?" and so I was
answering that part

Cheers,
Rob.
--
..------------------------------------------------------------.
| InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com |
:------------------------------------------------------------:
| An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting |
| a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services |
| such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn |
| also provides an extremely flexible architecture for |
| creating re-usable components quickly and easily. |
`------------------------------------------------------------'

On Jan 31, 2008 1:03 PM, Jochem Maas <jochem@iamjochem.com> wrote:

> Robert Cummings schreef:
> > What you just typed into a form, or erased and decide you actually want,
> > etc.
>
> FF does that - at least it does for me, has done for as long as I can
> remember.


it doesnt let you reclaim lost tabs. nor does it save the tabs for the next
time you
open it. i have to pkill ff or similar to get it to ask if i want to
restore the session.
opera just does it.

-nathan

On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 19:06 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> Robert Cummings schreef:
> > On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:02 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Would you believe me if I said I wasn't in IT? My wife isn't in IT,
> > but she uses Opera regularly, she likes it's speed and the way it zooms.
> > My 4 year old son loves Opera, but he doesn't know anything else yet
> > He likes it when I jump on google images and do searches for things like
> > "dinosaurs", "solar system", "trucks", etc. Then he browses through the
> > results. of course, he also only knows Linux so far. He can happily
> > navigate folders and menus. The icons determine his interest level
> > since he can't read very well just yet.
>
> great story. :-) my 4yo mostly likes trains and stuff - but he kind of
> expects the images to browse by themselves (which they do when you slideshow them ;-).
>
> I try to steer him away from tech crap, trying to get him to grok a piano
> keyboard before a PC one. and no TV either.

Our TV is connected to a computer. It's great, while watching a movie or
whatever, we can slip over to a browser and check out something about an
actor or the show itself on IMDB, Wikipedia, Google or whatever. Also, I
ripped my kid's DVD movies to the hard drive and created a little PHP
script that cycles randomly through them over and over again using
mplayer. He knows to hit spacebar if he has to hit the bathroom and 'q'
if he doesn't want to watch one in particular and then it goes onto the
next. He messes with the keyboard lots. Sometimes he'll shout over to me
"Daddy, daddy, check this out". A few weeks back he was showing me how
he could backup the playing show using the left arrow key. I encourage
him to experiment. Nothing important to lose on that computer. On
occasion he pops something up he can't get rid of, fortunately it's just
a matter of popping up a VNC window and I can correct the problem
without having to get out of my office-- which is across the room in the
basement

Cheers,
Rob.
--
..------------------------------------------------------------.
| InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com |
:------------------------------------------------------------:
| An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting |
| a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services |
| such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn |
| also provides an extremely flexible architecture for |
| creating re-usable components quickly and easily. |
`------------------------------------------------------------'

> PHP is a server-side page generator. It has NOTHING to do with the browser.
> The PHP programmer determines the content of the resulting HTML and the
> browser reacts to THAT. Browsers never see a line of PHP script!

What's your point?

--
Richard Heyes
http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk

Knowledge Base and desk software for £299pa hosted for you -
no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free

On Jan 31, 2008 1:50 PM, Richard Heyes <richardh@phpguru.org> wrote:
> > PHP is a server-side page generator. It has NOTHING to do with the browser.
> > The PHP programmer determines the content of the resulting HTML and the
> > browser reacts to THAT. Browsers never see a line of PHP script!
>
> What's your point?
>
>
> --
> Richard Heyes
> http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk
>
> Knowledge Base and desk software for £299pa hosted for you -
> no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

Unless somebody forgets to configure Apache properly. ;D

Browsers
Explorer 5739 82.26%
Firefox 740 10.61%
Other 182 2.61%
Safari 97 1.39%
Netscape 49 0.70%
MSN Explorer 44 0.63%
Maxthon 34 0.49%
Avant Browser 22 0.32%
Mozilla 18 0.26%
Media Player 13 0.19%
Opera 12 0.17%
Real Player 9 0.13%
AOL 9 0.13%
WAP 3 0.04%
Konqueror 1 0.01%
MyIE2 1 0.01%
Galeon 1 0.01%
Camino 1 0.01%
Seamonkey 1 0.01%
UP.Browser 1 0.01%
Total 6977

Operating Systems
Windows XP 4242 60.80%
Windows 98 1120 16.05%
Windows Media Center 677 9.70%
Windows 2000 230 3.30%
Other 214 3.07%
Windows Vista 171 2.45%
MacOS X 134 1.92%
Windows 2003 62 0.89%
Windows ME 48 0.69%
Linux 38 0.54%
fedora 12 0.17%
Bluecoat DRTR 8 0.11%
Windows NT 5 0.07%
Ubuntu Linux 5 0.07%
Mobile 4 0.06%
MacOS PPC 3 0.04%
Debian Linux 1 0.01%
SuSE 1 0.01%
FreeBSD 1 0.01%
SunOS 1 0.01%
Total 6977

some stats pulled from my unlighted nether regions
list of browsers & OS for my very small web page
>>Unashamed Plug>> http://bbclone.de 'A PHP based web counter on steroids'
when you dont get access to server logs on a cheap hosting program

--
If at first you dont succeed
try try try again
If at first you do succeed
try not to look surprised

_
"Richard Heyes" <richardh@phpguru.org> wrote in message
news:47A1F974.1010502@phpguru.org...
> Robert Cummings wrote:
> > On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:14 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> >> let's not forget that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera
> >
> > Please back up that st-ass-tistic please. Methinks you reached around
> > and pulled it out of your lightless nether regions.
>
> I wouldn't say nobody, but certainly it's a rarity.
> http://www.thecounter.com reports Opera as having 1% of the market - 1%
> isn't exactly a lot.
>
> --
> Richard Heyes
> http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk
>
> Knowledge Base and desk software for £299pa hosted for you -
> no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free

On Thu, January 31, 2008 12:50 pm, Richard Heyes wrote:
>> PHP is a server-side page generator. It has NOTHING to do with the
>> browser.
>> The PHP programmer determines the content of the resulting HTML and
>> the
>> browser reacts to THAT. Browsers never see a line of PHP script!
>
> What's your point?

PHP itself cannot, in theory, be the source of the problem.

Therefore, one could claim that it's OT.

Of course, we're talking about the PEAR website, which is used to
acquire/research important components of PHP, so he's wrong, but so it
goes. :-)

--
Some people have a "gift" link here.
Know what I want?
I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist.
http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch
Yeah, I get a buck. So?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jochem Maas [mailto:jochem@iamjochem.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:19 AM
> To: richardh@phpguru.org
> Cc: PHP General List
> Subject: Re: [php] PEAR website and MSIE 6
>
> Richard Heyes schreef:
> >> firefox not an option?
> >
> > Nope.
> >
> > > or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
> >
> > Strange, IE has been working fine for me for the last eight years...

Yes. http://pear.php.net crashes my IE6 too. This is a problem with the
site, not the browser.

> seriously though - why is FF (or any other browser) not an
> option? your
> a web developer, I would imagine you should be running a
> complete arsenal of
> different browsers as part of the job, no?
> and then there's the question as to why you don't upgrade to
> IE7.

Please stop with the browser wars. They're boring and tired and serve no
purpose. IE6 is fast and launches in 1 second. FF takes many seconds. IE7 is
also a bloated pig and I will be very sad in 15 days when M$ FORCES everyone
to it. IE also has very nice DirectX rendering filters for gradients.

> or maybe rebuild the windows machine in question (hey it wouldn't be
> the first time something
> like this was ed by a clean install right?)

It is NOT the OS. It is the PEAR site itself that is to blame. There is
clearly some code or tag or something that is causing this failure. It
didn't used to be there either. I've gone to the PEAR site many times in the
past. The site isn't even that compex, so I'm curious why the webmaster
couldn't just fix this problem and make everyone happy? Or is the PHP
community so snobbish that they're turning into the Linux community?

I find it so ironic that all the fringe browser people freak out if their
browser isn't supported by some site and demand retribution, yet when the
tables are turned how quick they are to tell 80% of the world to use a 20%
browser...

*sigh*

On Thu, January 31, 2008 4:30 pm, Daevid Vincent wrote:
> Please stop with the browser wars. They're boring and tired and serve
> no
> purpose.

+1

> IE6 is fast and launches in 1 second. FF takes many seconds.

Errrr.

Isn't that because IE6 pre-loads everything during the BOOT process,
slowing that down quite a bit?...

> past. The site isn't even that compex, so I'm curious why the
> webmaster
> couldn't just fix this problem and make everyone happy? Or is the PHP
> community so snobbish that they're turning into the Linux community?

Why are you bugging thousands of people on this list about it?

Have you tried to email the PEAR webmaster?

Or filed a bug report on pear.php.net about it?

Or anything more sensible than emailing thousands of PHP-General
subscribers?

--
Some people have a "gift" link here.
Know what I want?
I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist.
http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch
Yeah, I get a buck. So?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Lynch [mailto:ceo@l-i-e.com]
>
> > IE6 is fast and launches in 1 second. FF takes many seconds.
>
> Isn't that because IE6 pre-loads everything during the BOOT process,
> slowing that down quite a bit?...

I guess. I leave my XP box on all the time, so "boot" is a rare occurance.
Having the browser launch immediately is well worth that tradeoff. I open it
probably 100+ times a day.

> > past. The site isn't even that compex, so I'm curious why the
> > webmaster
> > couldn't just fix this problem and make everyone happy? Or
> is the PHP
> > community so snobbish that they're turning into the Linux community?
>
> Why are you bugging thousands of people on this list about it?
> Have you tried to email the PEAR webmaster?
> Or filed a bug report on pear.php.net about it?
> Or anything more sensible than emailing thousands of PHP-General
> subscribers?

I'm not the O.P. I was just replying to his email that asked if people were
experiencing the same issue. There are 20+ other emails in this thread that
are less relevant than mine actually. Although, I don't think that
expressing a concern over the PEAR official site -- which by definition is
PHP -- is considered "bugging". If YOU were the one that had your entire
browser (tree) close down b/c you innocently went to the PEAR site while
doing your job, which crashed all your other IE windows, I suspect you would
have a different take on this topic.

d

Daevid Vincent schreef:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jochem Maas [mailto:jochem@iamjochem.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:19 AM
>> To: richardh@phpguru.org
>> Cc: PHP General List
>> Subject: Re: [php] PEAR website and MSIE 6
>>
>> Richard Heyes schreef:
>>>> firefox not an option?
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>> > or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>>>
>>> Strange, IE has been working fine for me for the last eight years...
>
> Yes. http://pear.php.net crashes my IE6 too. This is a problem with the
> site, not the browser.
>
>> seriously though - why is FF (or any other browser) not an
>> option? your
>> a web developer, I would imagine you should be running a
>> complete arsenal of
>> different browsers as part of the job, no?
>> and then there's the question as to why you don't upgrade to
>> IE7.
>
> Please stop with the browser wars.

it's not browser wars - it's pragmatism - thinking aloud about how to
get round the issue - I'm assuming Richard does have access to the PEAR site's
source files or the means to upload them to the PEAR webserver.

They're boring and tired and serve no
> purpose. IE6 is fast and launches in 1 second. FF takes many seconds. IE7 is
> also a bloated pig and I will be very sad in 15 days when M$ FORCES everyone
> to it. IE also has very nice DirectX rendering filters for gradients.
>
>> or maybe rebuild the windows machine in question (hey it wouldn't be
>> the first time something
>> like this was ed by a clean install right?)
>
> It is NOT the OS. It is the PEAR site itself that is to blame. There is
> clearly some code or tag or something that is causing this failure.

let's see now - a webserver outputs some content, it may be invalid. a browser
crashes upon trying to render the content. hmm, sounds to me like the problem is
in the browser, decent software should crash because of shitty input.

granted if the PEAR just didn't render properly or caused 'invalid XML/XHTML/whatever'
message in the browser then yes it would be the site's problem. but until the browser
is capable of saying 'hey this content is junk, I can't use it [because of XYZ]' then
really the first issue is with that browser.

it's same at the server end - if your browser (or you, maliciously) posts freaking/invalid
byte sequences at some script I've got on the server then would you consider it correct
that the server crashed? or would you expect some kind of 'your input sucks' error
message to appear?

> It
> didn't used to be there either. I've gone to the PEAR site many times in the
> past. The site isn't even that compex, so I'm curious why the webmaster
> couldn't just fix this problem and make everyone happy?

we work around bugs and problems all day in the job we do - how is cranking up a
different browser because a site happens not to work with a particular site any different?

if we're really about making everyone happy - how about we tackle something
serious like the whole 'war for oil' business? exactly how fragile is a human mind if
a browser crashing on a particular site is deciding factor in being capable of
experiencing happiness? (not that I'm suggesting this about Richard - Im sure he
was just a little miffed and ping'ed the question out of curiousity more than anything)

> Or is the PHP
> community so snobbish that they're turning into the Linux community?
> I find it so ironic that all the fringe browser people freak out if their
> browser isn't supported by some site and demand retribution, yet when the
> tables are turned how quick they are to tell 80% of the world to use a 20%
> browser...

let's make it sound like they all *chose* IE shall we - a large majority
of that 80% actually think IE *is* the internet, they certainly didn't choose it
because they thought it was the best tool for the job (which it may or may not
be depending or circumstance and/or perspective) - indoctrination and ignorance
do not make good metrics for determining the superiority of a given product ...
keyboard layout being another fine example ... de facto not necessarily equal da bom

>
> *sigh*

indeed

Go to windowsupdate. There was an update for IE6 for websites randomly
crashing. I know, because I was affected. Some update broke IE6 and
then you had to update a second time.

Make sure you're all up to date (and restart, sigh) - and it should be good.

On 1/31/08, Richard Heyes <richardh@phpguru.org> wrote:
> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
> for me.
>
> http://pear.php.net
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Richard Heyes
> http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk
>
> Knowledge Base and desk software for £299pa hosted for you -
> no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

I am also facing the same problem with IE 6

On Feb 1, 3:30am, dae...@daevid.com ("Daevid Vincent") wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jochem Maas [mailto:joc...@iamjochem.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:19 AM
> > To: richa...@phpguru.org
> > Cc: PHP General List
> > Subject: Re: [php] PEAR website and MSIE 6
>
> > Richard Heyes schreef:
> > >> firefox not an option?
>
> > > Nope.
>
> > > > or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>
> > > Strange, IE has been working fine for me for the last eight years...
>
> Yes.http://pear.php.netcrashes my IE6 too. This is a problem with the
> site, not the browser.
>
> > seriously though - why is FF (or any other browser) not an
> > option? your
> > a web developer, I would imagine you should be running a
> > complete arsenal of
> > different browsers as part of the job, no?
> > and then there's the question as to why you don't upgrade to
> > IE7.
>
> Please stop with the browser wars. They're boring and tired and serve no
> purpose. IE6 is fast and launches in 1 second. FF takes many seconds. IE7 is
> also a bloated pig and I will be very sad in 15 days when M$ FORCES everyone
> to it. IE also has very nice DirectX rendering filters for gradients.
>
> > or maybe rebuild the windows machine in question (hey it wouldn't be
> > the first time something
> > like this was ed by a clean install right?)
>
> It is NOT the OS. It is the PEAR site itself that is to blame. There is
> clearly some code or tag or something that is causing this failure. It
> didn't used to be there either. I've gone to the PEAR site many times in the
> past. The site isn't even that compex, so I'm curious why the webmaster
> couldn't just fix this problem and make everyone happy? Or is the PHP
> community so snobbish that they're turning into the Linux community?
>
> I find it so ironic that all the fringe browser people freak out if their
> browser isn't supported by some site and demand retribution, yet when the
> tables are turned how quick they are to tell 80% of the world to use a 20%
> browser...
>
> *sigh*