some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows by
making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...

you can get the sovereignty over your system back by purging hal from
your installation and adding this

-------------------------------------
Section "ServerFlags"
Option "AutoAddDevices" "false"
EndSection
----------------------------------------

to your /etc/X11/xorg.conf


FUCK YOU! whoever did that...



Dirk


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:49:48 am Dirk wrote:
> some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows
> by making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...

Just for clarification, is this in Debian stable or test?

Randy Kramer
--
I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I created a video
instead.--with apologies to Cicero, et.al.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Hi,
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Randy Kramer <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:49:48 am Dirk wrote:
>> some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows
>> by making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...
>
> Just for clarification, is this in Debian stable or test?
In unstable at 9 apr.

Regards,


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Randy Kramer wrote:
> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:49:48 am Dirk wrote:
>> some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows
>> by making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...
>
> Just for clarification, is this in Debian stable or test?
>
> Randy Kramer

unstable.. if it was already in stable i wouldn't bother complaining
here because it would be too late...


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:22:59 +0200, Dirk posted:

> Randy Kramer wrote:
>> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:49:48 am Dirk wrote:
>>> some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows
>>> by making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...
>>
>> Just for clarification, is this in Debian stable or test?
>>
>> Randy Kramer
>
> unstable.. if it was already in stable i wouldn't bother complaining here
> because it would be too late...

Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even
though you have now identified your version. You might want to try a
developers list rather than a users one. Of course, they might not like
the way you explain your complaint.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Thorny wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:22:59 +0200, Dirk posted:
>
>> Randy Kramer wrote:
>>> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:49:48 am Dirk wrote:
>>>> some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows
>>>> by making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...
>>> Just for clarification, is this in Debian stable or test?
>>>
>>> Randy Kramer
>> unstable.. if it was already in stable i wouldn't bother complaining here
>> because it would be too late...
>
> Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even
> though you have now identified your version. You might want to try a
> developers list rather than a users one. Of course, they might not like
> the way you explain your complaint.
>
>
>

well this post was a complaint wrapped in a howto for avoiding hal
because i thought that was important...

but i posted in debian-x@lists.debian.org too.. just for the case the
package maintainers don't know what they do when they compile xorg with
an installed hal-devel...


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Thorny writes:
> Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even
> though you have now identified your version. You might want to try a
> developers list rather than a users one. Of course, they might not like
> the way you explain your complaint.

File a bug against xserver-xorg and firmly but _politely_ explain your
objection.
--
John Hasler


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

John Hasler wrote:
> Thorny writes:
>> Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even
>> though you have now identified your version. You might want to try a
>> developers list rather than a users one. Of course, they might not like
>> the way you explain your complaint.
>
> File a bug against xserver-xorg and firmly but _politely_ explain your
> objection.

someone already did...

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=515214

and the replies, nitpicking and bullshitting already took more place,
energy and time than turning hal from a dependency back into a
recommended package...

and i just found out that ctrl+alt+backspace doesn't work anymore without
hal... despite the...

Option "AutoAddDevices" "off"


hal is such a cancerous piece of crap that it would be interesting to
know in what companies the hal developers spend their working time...
and in what companies the xorg and had debian package maintainers spend
their working time...


Dirk


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Dirk <noisyb@gmx.net> wrote:
> John Hasler wrote:
>>
>> Thorny writes:
>>>
>>> Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even
>>> though you have now identified your version. You might want to try a
>>> developers list rather than a users one. Of course, they might not like
>>> the way you explain your complaint.
>>
....
> and i just found out that ctrl+alt+backspace doesn't work anymore without
> hal... despite the...

If you don't want surprises stick to stable
See current X issues at sid [1]

Regards,
[1] http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/...lemsInUnstable


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Dirk wrote:
> some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows by
> making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...
>
> you can get the sovereignty over your system back by purging hal from
> your installation and adding this
>
> -------------------------------------
> Section "ServerFlags"
> Option "AutoAddDevices" "false"
> EndSection
> ----------------------------------------
>
> to your /etc/X11/xorg.conf
>
>

But how to avoid adding hal in a dist-upgrade¹?

¹
/Tue Apr 14-11:00:39SDA6# apt-get dist-upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
gnome-doc-utils gnome-mime-data gnome-mount gvfs *hal hal-info*...
....

Hugo


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 08:51, Dirk <noisyb@gmx.net> wrote:
> John Hasler wrote:
>>
>> Thorny writes:
>>>
>>> Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even
>>> though you have now identified your version. You might want to try a
>>> developers list rather than a users one. Of course, they might not like
>>> the way you explain your complaint.
>>
>> File a bug against xserver-xorg and firmly but _politely_ explain your
>> objection.
>
> someone already did...
>
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=515214
>
> and the replies, nitpicking and bullshitting already took more place, energy
> and time than turning hal from a dependency back into a recommended
> package...
>
> and i just found out that ctrl+alt+backspace doesn't work anymore without
> hal... despite the...
>
> Option "AutoAddDevices" "off"

ctrl+alt+backspace has nothing at all to do with hal, and if you want it back
you need Option "DontZap" "off"

> hal is such a cancerous piece of crap that it would be interesting to know
> in what companies the hal developers spend their working time... and in what
> companies the xorg and had debian package maintainers spend their working
> time...

Actually, hal is a rather useful piece of technology. The only real problem with
hal is that it could use a little more attention and some cleanup.
Certainly the
idea of hal is sound. Luckily, hal is getting the cleanup it needs, in the sense
that it is turning into/being replaced by DeviceKit.

I believe the primary hal author works for Red Hat, some of the employers
of Xorg people include Intel, Novell, Red Hat and Tungsten Graphics (now
owned by VMWare). I don't know who the Debian xorg maintainers work for;
since this is Debian there is a good possibility that their day jobs are
unrelated to Xorg.

Anyway, X can make very good use of some of the services hal provides,
and there is no sensein Xorg recreating that functionality when it already
exists.

I have to say, though, it worries me a bit that someone could have such
vitriolic hatred towards a piece of software...


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Kelly writes:
> Anyway, X can make very good use of some of the services hal provides,
> and there is no sensein Xorg recreating that functionality when it
> already exists.

That is grounds for a "Suggests", or perhaps even a "Recommends". It is
not grounds for a "Depends".

I know of nothing Hal does that I need.
--
John Hasler


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On 14 Apr 2009, Javier Barroso wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Dirk <noisyb@gmx.net> wrote:
> > John Hasler wrote:
> >>
> >> Thorny writes:
> >>>
> >>> Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even
> >>> though you have now identified your version. You might want to try a
> >>> developers list rather than a users one. Of course, they might not like
> >>> the way you explain your complaint.
> >>
> ...
> > and i just found out that ctrl+alt+backspace doesn't work anymore without
> > hal... despite the...
>
> If you don't want surprises stick to stable
> See current X issues at sid [1]
>
> Regards,
> [1] http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/...lemsInUnstable

I know nothing about HAL, but I've sorted out all the problems with the
upgrade (keyboard, xmodmap). I'm left with a display on fullscreen TV
which freezes for long periods, so I've reverted to the xorg version in
Testing for the time being.

Anthony

--
Anthony Campbell - ac@acampbell.org.uk
Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
and sceptical articles)


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:01:01 +0200
Dirk <noisyb@gmx.net> wrote:

> Thorny wrote:
> > On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:22:59 +0200, Dirk posted:
> >
> >> Randy Kramer wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:49:48 am Dirk wrote:
> >>>> some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows
> >>>> by making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...
> >>> Just for clarification, is this in Debian stable or test?
> >>>
> >>> Randy Kramer
> >> unstable.. if it was already in stable i wouldn't bother complaining here
> >> because it would be too late...
> >
> > Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even
> > though you have now identified your version. You might want to try a
> > developers list rather than a users one. Of course, they might not like
> > the way you explain your complaint.
> >
> >
> >
>
> well this post was a complaint wrapped in a howto for avoiding hal
> because i thought that was important...
>
> but i posted in debian-x@lists.debian.org too.. just for the case the
> package maintainers don't know what they do when they compile xorg with
> an installed hal-devel...
>
>


They know exactly what they do, and it's been in experimental for testing for a
long time now. The whole idea is to allow hot plugging devices such as mice,
printers etc. If you look in
/usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/
there are even quite a lot of rules already set up. for most cases and people
it is now possible to run X with a (nearly) empty xorg.conf and things just
work.
and as you mentioned it is still possible to disable it


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Hi,
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Hugo Vanwoerkom <hvw59601@care2.com> wrote:
>
> But how to avoid adding hal in a dist-upgradeàž™?
Now you can't, you will have to wait debian release a
xorg-xserver-nohal or similar package (as suggeted in the bug
commented before in this thread)

Regards,


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:12:25AM -0700, Kelly Clowers wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 08:51, Dirk <noisyb@gmx.net> wrote:
> > John Hasler wrote:
> >>
> >> Thorny writes:
> >>>
> >>> Well, complaining here will probably not do much for you either, even

[snip]

> Actually, hal is a rather useful piece of technology. The only real problem with
> hal is that it could use a little more attention and some cleanup.
> Certainly the
> idea of hal is sound. Luckily, hal is getting the cleanup it needs, in the sense
> that it is turning into/being replaced by DeviceKit.
>
> I believe the primary hal author works for Red Hat, some of the employers
> of Xorg people include Intel, Novell, Red Hat and Tungsten Graphics (now
> owned by VMWare). I don't know who the Debian xorg maintainers work for;
> since this is Debian there is a good possibility that their day jobs are
> unrelated to Xorg.
>
> Anyway, X can make very good use of some of the services hal provides,
> and there is no sensein Xorg recreating that functionality when it already
> exists.
>
> I have to say, though, it worries me a bit that someone could have such
> vitriolic hatred towards a piece of software...

This sounds like the original threads about the way selinux has made its
way into debian as well.

I for one originally had these feels about hal (and selinux), but I
think this is more from the fact that I follow unstable and that the
pain involved is from a) lack of knowledge of the new product ie HAl b)
from that bad initial setup of packages ie HAL. But this is part of the
process of getting a good package starting some where and then refining
so that it works

[ot] my biggest pain about hal is how to config it to not automatically
load up my spare drives and ups and and [/ot]



>
>
> Cheers,
> Kelly Clowers
>
>

--
"I hope we get to the bottom of the answer. It's what I'm interested to know."

- George W. Bush
04/26/2000
as quoted by AP

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAknk/9oACgkQkZz88chpJ2O8CgCffsjgqmcx59Sefb4uBj2LolgY
7WEAn0PF/XgcY38du+1hUO6pfYpDJmOy
=++pz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:00:22 +0300
Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:

> They know exactly what they do, and it's been in experimental for
> testing for a long time now. The whole idea is to allow hot plugging
> devices such as mice, printers etc. If you look in
> /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/
> there are even quite a lot of rules already set up. for most cases
> and people it is now possible to run X with a (nearly) empty
> xorg.conf and things just work.
> and as you mentioned it is still possible to disable it

Any reason why this can't be a recommends? As you know, by default,
recommends are installed alongside dependencies when installing an
application, and you have to manually set your package manager to
disable such actions, so HAL would normally get installed if you
install/upgrade xserver-xorg. I can't see why HAL has been raised to a
dependency when Xorg can run without. It just seems restrictive and
unnecessary. I just hope they return HAL to a recommends.


Graham


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:06:34PM +0100, Graham wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:00:22 +0300
> Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
>
> > They know exactly what they do, and it's been in experimental for
> > testing for a long time now. The whole idea is to allow hot plugging
> > devices such as mice, printers etc. If you look in
> > /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/
> > there are even quite a lot of rules already set up. for most cases
> > and people it is now possible to run X with a (nearly) empty
> > xorg.conf and things just work.
> > and as you mentioned it is still possible to disable it
>
> Any reason why this can't be a recommends?

If you look here:
http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/...lemsInUnstable you'll
see that as of yesterday at least one person involved thinks they
might reduce that dependency. Of course the tenor of the related bug
report suggests otherwise, at least it is in discussion. Though many
may not like the current situation the fact that we can at least
discuss it and have an opportunity to change it is encouraging.

A

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAknlPaQACgkQaIeIEqwil4acBACg26mSljFJhJ 6kfSuBc4ozPhCE
H/4AoN8QG3WCuIq85uRM5/KXtn94u3kE
=cRV/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Jochen Schulz wrote:
> Dirk:
>> John Hasler wrote:
>>> File a bug against xserver-xorg and firmly but _politely_ explain your
>>> objection.
>> someone already did...
>>
>> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=515214
>>
>>
> Well, the first messages in this bug report weren't very polite
> either...
>
>> and i just found out that ctrl+alt+backspace doesn't work anymore without
>> hal... despite the...
>>
>> Option "AutoAddDevices" "off"
>
> If you had spent some time reading TFM instead of insulting developers
> you would have found out that this change is completely unrelated to
> hal. You are making yourself ridiculous.
>
>> hal is such a cancerous piece of crap that it would be interesting to
>> know in what companies the hal developers spend their working time...
>> and in what companies the xorg and had debian package maintainers spend
>> their working time...
>
> You are free to with the enormous task of maintaining X.Org in
> Debian. Before you can do that, you need to acquire some manners,
> though. You current attitude will not your case.
>
> J.

and the replies, nitpicking and bullshitting already took more place,
energy and time than turning hal from a dependency back into a
recommended package...


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Dirk wrote:
> some true asshole decreased linux' value as an alternative to windows by
> making hal a dependency(!) of xorg now...

I agree that this is objectionable.

In any case, "dpkg --force-" should tell you what you need to know in
order to get rid of hal.
--
John Hasler


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org