Hi,

In the Debian-User Guidelines:
http://people.cornell.edu/pages/kk28...uidelines.html

Point #7 says:
"... Also, you need not change the title of thread when saying "thanks"
or "solved the problem". Some email clients might not handle threads
appropriately when changing the subject of conversations."

Is this still the case? I have considered that having [solved] or
something similar in the subject is a handy thing.

Maybe, politely suggesting they get a better email client would be a
better solution?

Good work by Kamaraju Kusumanchi on this. It would be good to see it
added to the .sig with the howto (un)subscribe message already added to
each message.

--
Chris.
======
"One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned
at the stake while the votes were being counted." -- Thomas B. Reed


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Chris Bannister wrote:

> Hi,
>
> In the Debian-User Guidelines:
> http://people.cornell.edu/pages/kk28...uidelines.html
>
> Point #7 says:
> "... Also, you need not change the title of thread when saying "thanks"
> or "solved the problem". Some email clients might not handle threads
> appropriately when changing the subject of conversations."
>
> Is this still the case? I have considered that having [solved] or
> something similar in the subject is a handy thing.

I believe so. gmail web interface is one popular example. If the tilte
changes, it will be in different "conversation".

>
> Good work by Kamaraju Kusumanchi on this.

Thanks for the kind words.

raju
--
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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On Mon,14.Jul.08, 18:10:15, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote:
> Chris Bannister wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > In the Debian-User Guidelines:
> > http://people.cornell.edu/pages/kk28...uidelines.html
> >
> > Point #7 says:
> > "... Also, you need not change the title of thread when saying "thanks"
> > or "solved the problem". Some email clients might not handle threads
> > appropriately when changing the subject of conversations."
> >
> > Is this still the case? I have considered that having [solved] or
> > something similar in the subject is a handy thing.
>
> I believe so. gmail web interface is one popular example. If the tilte
> changes, it will be in different "conversation".

OTOH it makes it easy to spot solved threads (especially if Florian
participated This is very useful if I have a big backlog from d-u.

Regards,
Andrei
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)

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On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 18:10 -0400, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote:
> Chris Bannister wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > In the Debian-User Guidelines:
> > http://people.cornell.edu/pages/kk28...uidelines.html
> >
> > Point #7 says:
> > "... Also, you need not change the title of thread when saying "thanks"
> > or "solved the problem". Some email clients might not handle threads
> > appropriately when changing the subject of conversations."
> >
> > Is this still the case? I have considered that having [solved] or
> > something similar in the subject is a handy thing.
>
> I believe so. gmail web interface is one popular example. If the tilte
> changes, it will be in different "conversation".

GMail is known buggy and not suitable for mailing list use, if only for
it's propensity to send HTML when the user wasn't expecting to, and it's
brutal lack of Reply to Mailing List and poor threading.

--
Paul Johnson
baloo@ursine.ca

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> GMail is known buggy and not suitable for mailing list use, if only for
> it's propensity to send HTML when the user wasn't expecting to, and it's
> brutal lack of Reply to Mailing List and poor threading.

And yet, it's free-as-in-beer, without having to expose your home system
to the vulnerabilities associated with running your own mail server, and its
thread-collapsing system and effective search features make it heaps
easier to store debugging steps and solutions from the ML and even find
them again later. Granted, you have to be comfortable with your mail
being stored on an untrusted server; and setting up encryption and
signing in Gmail is something I've yet to attempt... but there
are pros as well as cons.

If anyone is wondering, the "settings" button in the upper right corner
can be used to easily configure a text-based reply mode. Looks like it
even auto-wraps to a character count (although I haven't been playing with
it in text-mode enough lately to speak).


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On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:22:29 -0400
"Jeff Soules" <soules@gmail.com> wrote:

> > GMail is known buggy and not suitable for mailing list use, if only for
> > it's propensity to send HTML when the user wasn't expecting to, and it's
> > brutal lack of Reply to Mailing List and poor threading.
>
> And yet, it's free-as-in-beer, without having to expose your home system
> to the vulnerabilities associated with running your own mail server, and its
> thread-collapsing system and effective search features make it heaps
> easier to store debugging steps and solutions from the ML and even find
> them again later. Granted, you have to be comfortable with your mail
> being stored on an untrusted server; and setting up encryption and
> signing in Gmail is something I've yet to attempt... but there
> are pros as well as cons.

Note that Gmail can be used via POP or IMAP, without the web interface,
as I and others on the list use it. One still gets the free-as-in-beer
mail service and storage space, but is free to use 'proper' software
(fetchmail / getmail, MUA, gpg, procmail / maildrop, etc.) in
conjunction with it. I do occasionally use the web interface for the
excellent search capability, and checking the spam folder for false
positives (of which there often are).


Celejar
--
mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator


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On Mon,14.Jul.08, 20:44:32, Celejar wrote:

> Note that Gmail can be used via POP or IMAP, without the web interface,

I'm wondering, did any of you have problems lately with that? Quite
often in the last weeks I get a mail from my getmail cronjob that my
password was rejected.

If I go to the webinterface I am requested to pass a captcha test. This
is getting pretty annoying!

Regards,
Andrei
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)

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Andrei Popescu wrote:
> On Mon,14.Jul.08, 20:44:32, Celejar wrote:
>
>> Note that Gmail can be used via POP or IMAP, without the web interface,
>
> I'm wondering, did any of you have problems lately with that? Quite
> often in the last weeks I get a mail from my getmail cronjob that my
> password was rejected.
>
> If I go to the webinterface I am requested to pass a captcha test. This
> is getting pretty annoying!

I'm having this all the time as well. I use Thunderbird with IMAP with
two different Google Apps accounts, and the passwords for both just
spontaneously stop working for a while, and then start working again
shortly.

The whole reason I switched to Google Apps was to make flakiness like
this go away, grrr...

-david


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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 07/14/08 20:34, David Barrett wrote:
> Andrei Popescu wrote:
>> On Mon,14.Jul.08, 20:44:32, Celejar wrote:
>>
>>> Note that Gmail can be used via POP or IMAP, without the web interface,
>>
>> I'm wondering, did any of you have problems lately with that? Quite
>> often in the last weeks I get a mail from my getmail cronjob that my
>> password was rejected.
>>
>> If I go to the webinterface I am requested to pass a captcha test.
>> This is getting pretty annoying!
>
> I'm having this all the time as well. I use Thunderbird with IMAP with
> two different Google Apps accounts, and the passwords for both just
> spontaneously stop working for a while, and then start working again
> shortly.
>
> The whole reason I switched to Google Apps was to make flakiness like
> this go away, grrr...

I keep telling people that Gmail is evil, but no one will listen.

If you care about your data, and want to get to it at any time, keep
your data and your apps on your local machine.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:46:07 -0500
Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:

> I keep telling people that Gmail is evil, but no one will listen.
>
> If you care about your data, and want to get to it at any time, keep
> your data and your apps on your local machine.

So what would you recommend for a free, ISP-independent email service
with IMAP and a sensible amount of storage space?

The reason I use Gmail is because there is no way I can set up
everything for email on a local server (not the least of which
preventing this is the restrictions of a consumer-level ISP) and no
other free mail service provides the same benefits as Gmail.

--
Brian

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On 07/14/08 21:04, Brian Marshall wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:46:07 -0500
> Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> I keep telling people that Gmail is evil, but no one will listen.
>>
>> If you care about your data, and want to get to it at any time, keep
>> your data and your apps on your local machine.
>
> So what would you recommend for a free, ISP-independent email service
> with IMAP and a sensible amount of storage space?
>
> The reason I use Gmail is because there is no way I can set up
> everything for email on a local server

Why not? Unless I am misunderstanding you, it's perfectly possible.
Here's a link to an emal from just last week about someone doing that:
http://lists-archives.org/debian-use...eh-r0x0rz.html
> (not the least of which
> preventing this is the restrictions of a consumer-level ISP) and no
> other free mail service provides the same benefits as Gmail.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:43:38 -0500
Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:

> On 07/14/08 21:04, Brian Marshall wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:46:07 -0500
> > Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> I keep telling people that Gmail is evil, but no one will listen.
> >>
> >> If you care about your data, and want to get to it at any time,
> >> keep your data and your apps on your local machine.
> >
> > So what would you recommend for a free, ISP-independent email
> > service with IMAP and a sensible amount of storage space?
> >
> > The reason I use Gmail is because there is no way I can set up
> > everything for email on a local server
>
> Why not? Unless I am misunderstanding you, it's perfectly possible.
> Here's a link to an emal from just last week about someone doing
> that:
> http://lists-archives.org/debian-use...eh-r0x0rz.html

Maybe I am just misunderstanding you or the ramifications, but I only
have a residential ISP package with a dynamic IP and the only domain
pointing towards it is free from DynDNS. I don't find myself in the
situation to run a complete mail package like what Gmail and others
provide.

--
Brian

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On 07/14/08 22:41, Brian Marshall wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:43:38 -0500
> Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On 07/14/08 21:04, Brian Marshall wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:46:07 -0500
>>> Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I keep telling people that Gmail is evil, but no one will listen.
>>>>
>>>> If you care about your data, and want to get to it at any time,
>>>> keep your data and your apps on your local machine.
>>> So what would you recommend for a free, ISP-independent email
>>> service with IMAP and a sensible amount of storage space?
>>>
>>> The reason I use Gmail is because there is no way I can set up
>>> everything for email on a local server
>> Why not? Unless I am misunderstanding you, it's perfectly possible.
>> Here's a link to an emal from just last week about someone doing
>> that:
>> http://lists-archives.org/debian-use...eh-r0x0rz.html
>
> Maybe I am just misunderstanding you or the ramifications, but I only
> have a residential ISP package with a dynamic IP and the only domain
> pointing towards it is free from DynDNS. I don't find myself in the
> situation to run a complete mail package like what Gmail and others
> provide.

I'm certain that you *are* running a "complete mail package" and
don't even know it! :O

Just about all Unix systems use the same MTA[0] to transfer intra-
system mail as they do to transfer mail across the world. Exim is
the Debian default, but many replace it with Postfix.

Most people must configure their MUA to send email to
smtp.bigisp.net, and receive mail from pop.bigisp.net. But with
Unix (and Debian makes this very easy) you can configure your MTA to
be a relayhost[1].

The way I've configured my system. Thus, in Icedove, I don't set
the smtp server to be smtp.east.cox.net but "haggis", which is my
machine's name. The MTA (Postfix, in my case) then routes the email
to smtp.east.cox.net which then takes it and sends it on to it's
final destination.

Conversely, fetchmail retrieves my mail from pop.east.cox.net then
passes it to Postfix (which feeds it thru Spam Assassin) and then to
an IMAP server running on my desktop. That's where I (and my wife
and children) read our email from, anywhere on our LAN.

[0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_transfer_agent
[1]http://www.postfix.org/BASIC_CONFIGURATION_README.html#relayhost
- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:16:29 -0500
Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:

> On 07/14/08 22:41, Brian Marshall wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:43:38 -0500
> > Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 07/14/08 21:04, Brian Marshall wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:46:07 -0500
> >>> Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I keep telling people that Gmail is evil, but no one will listen.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you care about your data, and want to get to it at any time,
> >>>> keep your data and your apps on your local machine.
> >>> So what would you recommend for a free, ISP-independent email
> >>> service with IMAP and a sensible amount of storage space?
> >>>
> >>> The reason I use Gmail is because there is no way I can set up
> >>> everything for email on a local server
> >> Why not? Unless I am misunderstanding you, it's perfectly
> >> possible. Here's a link to an emal from just last week about
> >> someone doing that:
> >> http://lists-archives.org/debian-use...eh-r0x0rz.html
> >
> > Maybe I am just misunderstanding you or the ramifications, but I
> > only have a residential ISP package with a dynamic IP and the only
> > domain pointing towards it is free from DynDNS. I don't find myself
> > in the situation to run a complete mail package like what Gmail and
> > others provide.
>
> I'm certain that you *are* running a "complete mail package" and
> don't even know it! :O
>
> Just about all Unix systems use the same MTA[0] to transfer intra-
> system mail as they do to transfer mail across the world. Exim is
> the Debian default, but many replace it with Postfix.
>
> Most people must configure their MUA to send email to
> smtp.bigisp.net, and receive mail from pop.bigisp.net. But with
> Unix (and Debian makes this very easy) you can configure your MTA to
> be a relayhost[1].
>
> The way I've configured my system. Thus, in Icedove, I don't set
> the smtp server to be smtp.east.cox.net but "haggis", which is my
> machine's name. The MTA (Postfix, in my case) then routes the email
> to smtp.east.cox.net which then takes it and sends it on to it's
> final destination.
>
> Conversely, fetchmail retrieves my mail from pop.east.cox.net then
> passes it to Postfix (which feeds it thru Spam Assassin) and then to
> an IMAP server running on my desktop. That's where I (and my wife
> and children) read our email from, anywhere on our LAN.
>
> [0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_transfer_agent
> [1]http://www.postfix.org/BASIC_CONFIGURATION_README.html#relayhost

Thanks, that was very informative. I had an understanding of MTAs but
not how they interacted with other POP and SMTP servers. After reading
your message, I think it's finally coming together now. :P

Would this also be possible using Gmail's servers? As I see it, using
your ISP's email address would be a pain if you ever had to change ISPs.

--
Brian

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On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 23:16:29 -0500, Ron Johnson (ron.l.johnson@cox.net) wrote:

> I'm certain that you *are* running a "complete mail package" and
> don't even know it! :O
>
> Just about all Unix systems use the same MTA[0] to transfer intra-
> system mail as they do to transfer mail across the world. Exim is
> the Debian default, but many replace it with Postfix.
>
> Most people must configure their MUA to send email to
> smtp.bigisp.net, and receive mail from pop.bigisp.net. But with
> Unix (and Debian makes this very easy) you can configure your MTA to
> be a relayhost[1].
>
> The way I've configured my system. Thus, in Icedove, I don't set
> the smtp server to be smtp.east.cox.net but "haggis", which is my
> machine's name. The MTA (Postfix, in my case) then routes the email
> to smtp.east.cox.net which then takes it and sends it on to it's
> final destination.
>
> Conversely, fetchmail retrieves my mail from pop.east.cox.net then
> passes it to Postfix (which feeds it thru Spam Assassin) and then to
> an IMAP server running on my desktop. That's where I (and my wife
> and children) read our email from, anywhere on our LAN.

Yes, I have used Postfix on my main home server for years now and it is
really pretty much zero maintenance. Because I am fortunate enough to
have a static IP address from my (consumer) ISP, (which is also
thoughtful enough to allow setting of valid rDNS) I send and receive
mail direct-to-mx from my Postfix box here. It means most unwanted
stuff is *rejected* at the SMTP envelope stage with some pretty simple
Postfix rules, rather than having to be accepted before being filtered
by Spamassassin or whatever.

--
Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK.
Registered user #445000 with the Linux Counter - http://counter.li.org/


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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:23:10 +0300
Andrei Popescu <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Andrei,

> If I go to the webinterface I am requested to pass a captcha test.
> This is getting pretty annoying!

If you don't use the web i/f at GMail, they "do things"(0) to your
account. Using the web interface once a week negates any adverse
effect.

Like Ron, I'm no fan of Gmail.

(0) Stopping POP/IMAP access is one of them.

--
Regards _
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)rad never immediately apparent"

An old custom to sell your daughter
Hong Kong Garden - Siouxsie & The Banshees

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On Mon,14.Jul.08, 20:46:07, Ron Johnson wrote:

> If you care about your data, and want to get to it at any time, keep
> your data and your apps on your local machine.

I don't keep any data on gmail servers. I use it mainly for posting.
Only a limited amount of mail goes through their servers because this is
the address I currently post everywhere.

Regards,
Andrei
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)

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On Mon,14.Jul.08, 23:16:29, Ron Johnson wrote:

> Most people must configure their MUA to send email to
> smtp.bigisp.net, and receive mail from pop.bigisp.net. But with
> Unix (and Debian makes this very easy) you can configure your MTA to
> be a relayhost[1].

I receive most of my emails through my ISPs POP server (ex. all list
traffic), but I can't use their SMTP server to relay as they don't allow
a different From, not even after authentication.

Regards,
Andrei
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)

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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:23:10 +0300
Andrei Popescu <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon,14.Jul.08, 20:44:32, Celejar wrote:
>
> > Note that Gmail can be used via POP or IMAP, without the web interface,
>
> I'm wondering, did any of you have problems lately with that? Quite

I haven't had trouble recently.

> often in the last weeks I get a mail from my getmail cronjob that my
> password was rejected.
>
> If I go to the webinterface I am requested to pass a captcha test. This
> is getting pretty annoying!

Haven't seen that.

> Andrei

Celejar
--
mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator


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On 7/16/08, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> An ordinary user might not have resources to have a machine running
>> 24/7.
>
> Why not?
>

Because I currently am using the services of an internet service
provider who claims to be providing "broadband" access under a plan
where I am metered by the byte, and the allowable limit under the
current plan is 400 MB (total two-way traffic) per month under this
plan (extra pay for more MBs). It's too expensive for me to get a
better plan, and plain not worth the money for the limited needs of
people here at home.

Of course, while I'd love to host my own mini-Mail data center, I
can't afford it.

Kumar
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Kumar Appaiah


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Ron Johnson wrote:

>> An ordinary user might not have resources to have a machine running
>> 24/7.
>
> Why not?
>

1. Because it is expensive and waste of resources.

2. If you are running a machine 24/7, the room better have good air
conditioning to reduce all the heat generated. Air conditioning a room
could be very expensive depending on where you live.

3. Some people do not have power 24/7. While it may be surprising to people
in developed countries, this is very much true. There are places where
power cuts of 5-6 hours a day is very common. If you happen to live in one
of these places it simply is not possible to run a machine 24/7.

raju
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Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
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http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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On Fri, 18 Jul 2008, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi engaged keyboard and shared this
with us all:
>--} Ron Johnson wrote:
>--}
>--} >> An ordinary user might not have resources to have a machine
> running --} >> 24/7.
>--} >
>--} > Why not?
>--} >
>--}
>--} 1. Because it is expensive and waste of resources.
>--}
>--} 2. If you are running a machine 24/7, the room better have good air
>--} conditioning to reduce all the heat generated. Air conditioning a room
>--} could be very expensive depending on where you live.
>--}
>--} 3. Some people do not have power 24/7. While it may be surprising to
> people --} in developed countries, this is very much true. There are places
> where --} power cuts of 5-6 hours a day is very common. If you happen to
> live in one --} of these places it simply is not possible to run a machine
> 24/7. --}
>--} raju

We only have solar power, so cannot leave a machine powered up 24/7, or
anything on standby for that matter. Everything, when not in use, has to be
turned off at the wall.

Charlie
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***********************************************
Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say: Today itself's too late; the wise
lived yesterday. __________________________________Martial

***********************************************
Debian, just the best way to create magic
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On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:14:42AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> On Mon,14.Jul.08, 23:16:29, Ron Johnson wrote:
>
> > Most people must configure their MUA to send email to
> > smtp.bigisp.net, and receive mail from pop.bigisp.net. But with
> > Unix (and Debian makes this very easy) you can configure your MTA to
> > be a relayhost[1].
>
> I receive most of my emails through my ISPs POP server (ex. all list
> traffic), but I can't use their SMTP server to relay as they don't allow
> a different From, not even after authentication.

I think you may be confusing "relay" with "open relay".

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Chris.
======
"One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned
at the stake while the votes were being counted." -- Thomas B. Reed


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On Sat,19.Jul.08, 00:43:13, Chris Bannister wrote:

> > I receive most of my emails through my ISPs POP server (ex. all list
> > traffic), but I can't use their SMTP server to relay as they don't allow
> > a different From, not even after authentication.
>
> I think you may be confusing "relay" with "open relay".

I have no problem to identify myself as a paying user to their services
(they do use SMTP AUTH). But afterwards they just plainly end the
session if the From does not have the address they supply.

Call it whatever you like, but they are still denying functionality to
paying users (which used to work before).

Regards,
Andrei
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If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)

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