S. Keeling wrote:

> So, perhaps ca. two thousand, six hundred, and ninety five files
> which have nothing to do with my printer? At least they're all
> gzipped ...

Astonishing. I've never understood the reason for having CUPS at
all (being a happy lprng user) but I had no idea it was *this*
bad. Surely at least the package maintainer should have realised
that something absurd was going on?

>>> The following packages are unused and will be REMOVED:
>>> ...
>>> Considering all the confusion and myriad pleas from people
>>> trying to get CUPS working on their systems, should we really
>>> be going down this road? CUPS has made a mess of printer
>>> configuration.

Agreed. We do not have a "user vote" system in Debian, but if we
had one, my vote would be to remove all dependencies from packages
that tend to make CUPS the default print system. I've posted about
this before..

Regards, Jan


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On Thu, Jun 14, 2007 at 05:08:35PM +0200, JWS wrote:
> S. Keeling wrote:
>
> > So, perhaps ca. two thousand, six hundred, and ninety five files
> > which have nothing to do with my printer? At least they're all
> > gzipped ...
>
> Astonishing. I've never understood the reason for having CUPS at
> all (being a happy lprng user) but I had no idea it was *this*
> bad. Surely at least the package maintainer should have realised
> that something absurd was going on?
>
> >>> The following packages are unused and will be REMOVED:
> >>> ...
> >>> Considering all the confusion and myriad pleas from people
> >>> trying to get CUPS working on their systems, should we really
> >>> be going down this road? CUPS has made a mess of printer
> >>> configuration.
>
> Agreed. We do not have a "user vote" system in Debian, but if we
> had one, my vote would be to remove all dependencies from packages
> that tend to make CUPS the default print system. I've posted about
> this before..

you can use popcon so that at least you can "vote" for others besides
CUPS. And i suppose you could file wishlist bugs against packages that
unnecessarily depend on CUPS. They could change the dependencies so
that (and it may already exist) any one of cups, lprng etc. "provides"
"printing system" .


.02

A

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JWS <jstumpel@planet.nl>:
> S. Keeling wrote:
>
> > So, perhaps ca. two thousand, six hundred, and ninety five files
> > which have nothing to do with my printer? At least they're all
>
> Astonishing. I've never understood the reason for having CUPS at

I've never liked it from the first time I saw it. It's just so
un-*nix like, it makes my blood boil.

> >>> be going down this road? CUPS has made a mess of printer
> >>> configuration.
>
> Agreed. We do not have a "user vote" system in Debian, but if we

We do. It's called popcon. However, I suspect the results are
heavily weighted in favour of the *buntu crowd.

> had one, my vote would be to remove all dependencies from packages
> that tend to make CUPS the default print system. I've posted about

I still think we need something along the lines of
"--prefers-subsystem=blah". I'm very thankful that I can still get a
system that's not loaded down with Desktop Environment stuff I don't
want, and instead manually haul in what I prefer. However, it's
extremely difficult to keep it that way when any random "aptitude
install" wants to drag in stuff I don't want, replacing what I went
out of my way to get.


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I've got about 300 servers out there using lprng.
My 1st run-in with cups gave me some surprises.
1) Removing cups generally removes X, desktop, etc...
2) lpstat no longer works (at least in the same manner, depending on the
flavor of Linux)...
3) Manual intervention into cups setup tends to get overwritten on every
re-boot. (didn't take time to figure this one out...)
I have about 500 users at client sites that know how to use my scripts that
manage lprng.
So, with lprng, I don't have to have technical people involved in setting up
and/or maintaining printers.
To implement a change from lprng to cups would involve weeks of development
and months of implementation.
So! If you want lprng... - after a fresh install of linux:
1) Stop the cups processes:
for i in /etc/init.d/cups*; do; $i stop; done
2) Edit the init scripts for cups and add the line "exit 0" at the top of
each one, effectively disabling cups.
vi /etc/init.d/cups*
3) install lprng
4) install your home-grown lprng management tools.
Enjoy!
Larry Irwin




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Larry Irwin <larryi@ccamedical.com>:
> I've got about 300 servers out there using lprng.
> My 1st run-in with cups gave me some surprises.
> 1) Removing cups generally removes X, desktop, etc...

That's one of the best reasons I can think of for not installing it in
the first place.

> So! If you want lprng... - after a fresh install of linux:
> 1) Stop the cups processes:
> for i in /etc/init.d/cups*; do; $i stop; done
> 2) Edit the init scripts for cups and add the line "exit 0" at the top of
> each one, effectively disabling cups.
> vi /etc/init.d/cups*
> 3) install lprng
> 4) install your home-grown lprng management tools.

So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may not have
to actually run it, but you have to have it installed. That's
ridiculous. This is viral software.


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On 06/14/07 16:53, s. keeling wrote:
[snip]
>
> So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may not have
> to actually run it, but you have to have it installed. That's
> ridiculous. This is viral software.

Start filing bugs against the deep-level dependers. apt-rdepends is
your friend.

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Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!


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s. keeling writes:
> So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may not have to
> actually run it, but you have to have it installed.

I guess I'm not running Debian:

toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s remove cupsys-client
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Package cupsys-client is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 575 not upgraded.
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s remove cupsys
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Package cupsys is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 575 not upgraded.
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s remove cupsys-common
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Package cupsys-common is not installed, so not removed


On the other hand, it is, um, "surprising" what depends on libcupsys2:

toncho/~ apt-cache rdepends libcupsys2
libcupsys2
Reverse Depends:
kdelibs-bin
kdelibs4
libgtk2.0-0
libgnomeprint2.2-0
kdelibs4c2
kdelibs4c2a
acroread
libgtk2.0-0
xpp
xfprint4
swat
scribus-ng
scribus
samba
rezound
python-cups
netatalk
libmono-system2.0-cil
libmono-system1.0-cil
libgtk2.0-0
libgnomeprint2.2-0
libgnomecupsui1.0-1c2a
libgnomecups1.0-1
libfox1.4
libfox-1.6-0
libcupsys2-dev
libcupsimage2
libcupsimage2
kdelibs4c2a
katoob
hplip
gtklp
gs-esp
gnustep-gui-runtime
gnome-cups-manager
cupsys-pt
cupsys-driver-gutenprint
cupsys-dbg
cupsys-client
cupsys-bsd
cupsys

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On Thu, Jun 14, 2007 at 09:53:40PM +0000, "s. keeling" <keeling@spots.ab.ca> was heard to say:
> Larry Irwin <larryi@ccamedical.com>:
> > So! If you want lprng... - after a fresh install of linux:
> > 1) Stop the cups processes:
> > for i in /etc/init.d/cups*; do; $i stop; done
> > 2) Edit the init scripts for cups and add the line "exit 0" at the top of
> > each one, effectively disabling cups.
> > vi /etc/init.d/cups*
> > 3) install lprng
> > 4) install your home-grown lprng management tools.
>
> So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may not have
> to actually run it, but you have to have it installed. That's
> ridiculous. This is viral software.

There are four packages that depend on the cups server:

bluez-cups
cupsys-driver-gutenprint
hplip
printconf

None of these are essential to the system, or even to the GUI.

Daniel


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> So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may
> not have to actually run it, but you have to have it installed.
> That's ridiculous. This is viral software.

True. Unfortunately this virus has already spread widely.. At
least 144 packages which do not really need cups (because anything
that prints can do so without cups) have been made dependent on it
in Debian. I rest my case as well. This case is even clearer than
yours, because Debian threatens to remove packages here, not
install them. Is there a cure? Could some of the "higher
management" in Debian explain what is going on here?

vega:/home/jws# apt-get remove libcupsys2

Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
The following packages will be REMOVED
abiword afterstep amule amule-utils-gui aterm audacity azureus
bittornado-gui choosewm digikam drgeo driconf ed2k-gtk-gui
firefox flashplugin-nonfree fluxconf gamix gimp glade
gnome-keyring gs-esp gstreamer0.10-plugins-good gtk-gnutella
gtk-theme-switch gtk2-engines gtk2-engines-pixbuf
gtk2-engines-xfce gtkam gucharmap iceape iceape-browser
iceape-mailnews icedove kdebase-bin kdebase-kio-plugins
kdelibs4c2a kdesktop leafpad libafterimage0 libafterstep1
libbonoboui2-0 libcupsimage2 libcupsys2 libcupsys2-dev
libexif-gtk5 libexo-0.3-0 libgail-common libgail17 libgail18
libgdk-pixbuf2-ruby libgdk-pixbuf2-ruby1.8 libgimp2.0
libgksuui1.0-1 libglade2-0 libglade2-dev libglademm-2.4-1c2a
libglademm-2.4-dev libgladeui-1-5 libgnome-keyring-dev
libgnome-keyring0 libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-dev
libgnomecups1.0-1 libgnomeprint2.2-0 libgnomeprintui2.2-0
libgnomeui-0 libgtk2.0-0 libgtk2.0-bin libgtk2.0-dev
libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a libgtkmm-2.4-dev libgtksourceview1.0-0
libgtkspell0 libgucharmap6 libkdcraw-runtime libkdcraw0
libkexif1 libkexiv2-1 libkipi0 libkonq4 libmetacity0
libnautilus-burn3 libnotify1 libpoppler0c2-glib
libqt3-mt-dev librsvg2-2 libscim8c2a libswt-gtk-3.1-java
libswt-gtk-3.1-jni libswt-gtk-3.2-java libswt-gtk-3.2-jni
libthunar-vfs-1-2 libwmf0.2-7 libwnck18 libwxgtk2.6-0
libxfcegui4-4 libxine1 libxine1-ffmpeg libxul0d mlterm
mlterm-tools mousepad mozilla-mplayer mozilla-thunderbird
mplayer mplayer-skin-blue obconf openoffice.org-calc
openoffice.org-core openoffice.org-draw
openoffice.org-filter-binfilter openoffice.org-impress
openoffice.org-math openoffice.org-writer pan python-gtk2
python-uno python-wxgtk2.6 quicktime-x11utils rapidsvn rox-filer
samba scim scim-modules-socket sgt-puzzles showimg sodipodi
streamtuner subtitleeditor thunar thunderbird uim uim-gtk2.0
uim-xim xaralx xcdroast xfce4-mcs-manager xfce4-netload-plugin
xfce4-panel xfce4-session xfce4-utils xfdesktop4 xfwm4
xine-ui xmms-xmmplayer xscreensaver xsensors
The following held packages will be changed:
firefox
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 147 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
Need to get 0B of archives.
After unpacking 650MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

Regards, Jan


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Jan Willem Stumpel <jstumpel@planet.nl>:
> > So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may
> > not have to actually run it, but you have to have it installed.
> > That's ridiculous. This is viral software.
>
> True. Unfortunately this virus has already spread widely.. At
> least 144 packages which do not really need cups (because anything

Ugh. The list of stuff it wants to get rid of is just weird.
Audacity, Azureus, Bittornado-gui, Mplayer, Xcdroast, Xscreensaver?!?

They're not even remotely related to printing. Here's another:

--------------------------------------------
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ apt-cache rdepends xscreensaver
xscreensaver
Reverse Depends:
xscreensaver-gl
xscreensaver-gl
xautolock
|rss-glx
kscreensaver-xsavers
junior-toys
|hibernate
gnome
gnome
gkrellshoot
afterstep
gnome-control-center
--------------------------------------------

There is no Gnome or KDE on this thing, yet xscreensaver works just as
it always has.


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s. keeling writes:
> There is no Gnome or KDE on this thing, yet xscreensaver works just as it
> always has.

And why wouldn't it? It doesn't depend on any Gnome or KDE stuff.
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John Hasler <jhasler@debian.org>:
> s. keeling writes:
> > There is no Gnome or KDE on this thing, yet xscreensaver works just as it
> > always has.
>
> And why wouldn't it? It doesn't depend on any Gnome or KDE stuff.

That's what I'm saying. It doesn't need them. I also see there's an
xscreensaver-nognome virtual package. I wonder if that can sort
out some of this nonsense.


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S. Keeling wrote:

> Ugh. The list of stuff it wants to get rid of is just weird.
> Audacity, Azureus, Bittornado-gui, Mplayer, Xcdroast,
> Xscreensaver?!?

It is indeed incredible that some packages that do not even print
(you were wrong about audacity BTW, because it *can* print -- but
you could have mentioned sgt-puzzles, for instance) pull in
libcupsys2. And of course even packages that *do* print do not
need cups per se. The dependency should be upon something like
"some print system", rather than on cups, and there should be no
such dependency at all for non-printing packages.

I suspect some developers have been too generous in assigning
dependencies to some packages -- especially library packages. Or
else, perhaps there really is some kind of virus messing up the
Debian package system.. Anyway I think the dependencies ought to
be looked at very critically, and when possible cleaned up. Are
any developers listening?

Regards, Jan


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s. keeling writes:
> There is no Gnome or KDE on this thing, yet xscreensaver works just as it
> always has.

I wrote:
> And why wouldn't it? It doesn't depend on any Gnome or KDE stuff.

s. keeling writes:
> That's what I'm saying. It doesn't need them. I also see there's an
> xscreensaver-nognome virtual package. I wonder if that can sort
> out some of this nonsense.

You listed xscreensaver's reverse-depends. Those are packages that depend
on it.
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Jan Willem Stumpel writes:
> I suspect some developers have been too generous in assigning
> dependencies to some packages -- especially library packages.

It's upstream that decides to link to the libraries.

> Anyway I think the dependencies ought to be looked at very critically,
> and when possible cleaned up. Are any developers listening?

File bugs (I don't mean that sarcastically).
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Am 2007-06-15 16:41:31, schrieb John Hasler:
> Jan Willem Stumpel writes:
> > I suspect some developers have been too generous in assigning
> > dependencies to some packages -- especially library packages.
>
> It's upstream that decides to link to the libraries.

But Debian-Maintainers CAN change the "Depends:" to "Recommends:" and if
some crappy software output errormessages thet it cannot find libcupsys2
the the software is definitivly bad designed sind it can check whether
a lib is availlable and THEN load it.

> > Anyway I think the dependencies ought to be looked at very critically,
> > and when possible cleaned up. Are any developers listening?
>
> File bugs (I don't mean that sarcastically).

Done, against Katoob and Samba.

Note: Those two programs push 38 MByte additional packages onto my
systems, while my selfbuild (from the Debian-Sources) are
working without any problems IF compiled --without-cupsys.

Katoob is no problem, but Samba enforce the loading of libcupsys, so it
has to patched if wou want to leave libcupsys2 linked but it is not
availlabel.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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