Hi All,


I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking for
a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
the other direction :-)

I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge, can someone
give me some pointers to a quick online introduction? I'm looking for
stuff like how yum and up2date compare to aptitude, how to safely
install downloaded rpm's without interfering with yum's updates, if
there are equivalents of repositories like backports etc..


Thx,


Peter


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On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
>
> I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
> working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
> and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking for
> a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
> the other direction :-)
>
> I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge

But this is debian. Why not ask RH for a transistion guide? One
doesn't ask Microsoft for transitioning to Debian.

Isn't RHEL a commercial product? Surely such a transition document
would come under "you get what you pay for...".

Doug.


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On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:54 -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
> >
> > I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
> > working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
> > and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking for
> > a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
> > the other direction :-)
> >
> > I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge
>
> But this is debian. Why not ask RH for a transistion guide? One
> doesn't ask Microsoft for transitioning to Debian.
>
> Isn't RHEL a commercial product? Surely such a transition document
> would come under "you get what you pay for...".

I am sure that he really meant the other way, "a RHEL User's
introduction to Debian (and its far superior tools and ways)"

I hope. I really hope. But since he is is using RH, I am afraid not.

In any case, RPM dependency hell, rings a big bell to me. YUM and
up2date are know to have significant deficiencies.

I've seen and do have some experience with RHEL and its wonderful
rolling ABI and API problems, unlike Debian "Stable".
--
greg, greg@gregfolkert.net

Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's
Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive
product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at
the playfield. -- Thane Walkup

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On 12-apr-2007, at 1:05, Greg Folkert wrote:

> On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:54 -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
>>>
>>> I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
>>> working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
>>> and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking
>>> for
>>> a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found
>>> intro's in
>>> the other direction :-)
>>>
>>> I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge
>>
>> But this is debian. Why not ask RH for a transistion guide? One
>> doesn't ask Microsoft for transitioning to Debian.
>>
>>
<snip>
>
> I am sure that he really meant the other way, "a RHEL User's
> introduction to Debian (and its far superior tools and ways)"
>
> I hope. I really hope. But since he is is using RH, I am afraid not.
<snip>

I'm a happy Debian user and will not move to RH. But. As I wrote in
my question, I'm _forced_ to use RHEL4 at my job.

Since more debianites will have been in this situation, I think it's
not inappropriate to ask on this list for pointers to a RH intro for
Debian users...

Peter


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On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 01:29 +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
> On 12-apr-2007, at 1:05, Greg Folkert wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:54 -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
> >>> working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
> >>> and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking
> >>> for
> >>> a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found
> >>> intro's in
> >>> the other direction :-)
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge
> >>
> >> But this is debian. Why not ask RH for a transistion guide? One
> >> doesn't ask Microsoft for transitioning to Debian.
> >>
> >>
> <snip>
> >
> > I am sure that he really meant the other way, "a RHEL User's
> > introduction to Debian (and its far superior tools and ways)"
> >
> > I hope. I really hope. But since he is is using RH, I am afraid not.
> <snip>
>
> I'm a happy Debian user and will not move to RH. But. As I wrote in
> my question, I'm _forced_ to use RHEL4 at my job.
>
> Since more debianites will have been in this situation, I think it's
> not inappropriate to ask on this list for pointers to a RH intro for
> Debian users...

About the only thing I can find is actual RH docs:

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/

--
greg, greg@gregfolkert.net

Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's
Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive
product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at
the playfield. -- Thane Walkup

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On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Peter Teunissen wrote:

>
> On 12-apr-2007, at 1:05, Greg Folkert wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:54 -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
>>>> working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
>>>> and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking for
>>>> a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
>>>> the other direction :-)
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge
>>>
>>> But this is debian. Why not ask RH for a transistion guide? One
>>> doesn't ask Microsoft for transitioning to Debian.
>>>
>>>
> <snip>
>>
>> I am sure that he really meant the other way, "a RHEL User's
>> introduction to Debian (and its far superior tools and ways)"
>>
>> I hope. I really hope. But since he is is using RH, I am afraid not.
> <snip>
>
> I'm a happy Debian user and will not move to RH. But. As I wrote in my
> question, I'm _forced_ to use RHEL4 at my job.
>
> Since more debianites will have been in this situation, I think it's not
> inappropriate to ask on this list for pointers to a RH intro for Debian
> users...
>
> Peter

here are some handy rpm commands I use a lot
rpm -qa | grep package - see if the package is installed
rpm -q --whatprovides /path/to/file - what package owns this file
rpm --setperms package - fix permissions on that package
rpm -Va - verify all packages
rpm -Vp package - verify package
up2date -l > package.list - just so i can have a list of packages
available
up2date -i package - install a package

do this to rebuild the rpm database, cause you know it will get corruped
at some point:
cd /var/lib/rpm/
mkdir ~/rpm.db.bak
mv /var/lib/rpm/__db* ~/rpm.bak
rpm -vv --rebuilddb


-+-
8 out of 10 Owners who Expressed a Preference said Their Cats Preferred Techno.


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On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>
> I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
> working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
> and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking for
> a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
> the other direction :-)
>
> I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge, can someone
> give me some pointers to a quick online introduction? I'm looking for
> stuff like how yum and up2date compare to aptitude, how to safely
> install downloaded rpm's without interfering with yum's updates, if
> there are equivalents of repositories like backports etc..
>
I would start by installing CentOS (in a Qemu instance or a Xen domU)
and poke around.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
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http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

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On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 07:05:47PM -0400, Greg Folkert wrote:
>
> I am sure that he really meant the other way, "a RHEL User's
> introduction to Debian (and its far superior tools and ways)"
>
> I hope. I really hope. But since he is is using RH, I am afraid not.
>
> In any case, RPM dependency hell, rings a big bell to me. YUM and
> up2date are know to have significant deficiencies.
>
> I've seen and do have some experience with RHEL and its wonderful
> rolling ABI and API problems, unlike Debian "Stable".

I am required to use RHEL in my day job (I'd much rather that than be
forced to use Windows). Their long support cycles make it not as much
of an issue. Along with the situation in many enterprises (standardized
configuration which is centrally controlled; specific apps tested for
compatibility before deployment), it works out rather nicely. Since you
have to pay for it, it makes the higher ups and the bean counters happy
since they are buying licenses and they have widgets to count.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
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http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

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On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 09:03:31PM -0400, Roberto C. S?nchez wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> > I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
> > working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
> > and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking for
> > a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
> > the other direction :-)
> >
> > I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge, can someone
> > give me some pointers to a quick online introduction? I'm looking for
> > stuff like how yum and up2date compare to aptitude, how to safely
> > install downloaded rpm's without interfering with yum's updates, if
> > there are equivalents of repositories like backports etc..
> >
> I would start by installing CentOS (in a Qemu instance or a Xen domU)
> and poke around.

Couldn't you have a minimal RHEL install and put debian in a Qemu or
Xen to do real work?

Doug.


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On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 01:29:51AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
>
> I'm a happy Debian user and will not move to RH. But. As I wrote in
> my question, I'm _forced_ to use RHEL4 at my job.
>
> Since more debianites will have been in this situation, I think it's
> not inappropriate to ask on this list for pointers to a RH intro for
> Debian users...
>

Red Hat EL 4 is business-like: if you want to run big Oracle data bases
or similar, it's what your bosses want. It appeals well to the sort
of business regards Linux as very new, that needs someone to blame and
is willing to pay support costs "in case". The sort of people that deal
with HP in preference because "well, DEC were such a good company"
That's its focus.

It's not very workmanlike in the sense of the ideal tools to
develop on: whenever I install or use RHEL, my first response is
"where _is_ everything?" - apps. that I'd normally apt-get
just aren't available.

RHEL 4 is still tied to Red Hat Network - yum is still "unofficial" at
that
stage IIRC. This has all changed in RHEL5, of course

There are no backports repositories, though you may get effective
backports shoved onto your system by updates. Most people I know say
"Oh, I had to download that from Freshmeat/freshRPMs"

Don't expect stability or consistency across the course of the release
lifetime.

Don't necessarily expect to use a stable GCC 4 - the one shipped with
RHEL originally was a daily snapshot from the December before the GCC
release in March. Kernel versions may also change subtly with updates


The concept of Debian stable as "stable and nothing will change in the
lifetime of this release" led me to expect at least that level of
stablility in patches from a well established Enterprise release

You can get stuff done: but it's not necessarily straightforward.

If you need to set things up from scratch - you need "old" hardware
and working X Windows because lots of config tools are GUI-fied.
My inexperience with RH shows here, but I've almost always found that
its necessary to install "everything" when you first install because
adding apps. afterwards can sometimes be a pain.

Others will add less biased points: suffice it to say, experience with
Red Hat is why a lot of my colleagues prefer to use Debian on a daily
basis.

Andy

> Peter
>


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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg Folkert wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:54 -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
>>> I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
>>> working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
>>> and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking for
>>> a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
>>> the other direction :-)
>>>
>>> I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge
>> But this is debian. Why not ask RH for a transistion guide? One
>> doesn't ask Microsoft for transitioning to Debian.
>>
>> Isn't RHEL a commercial product? Surely such a transition document
>> would come under "you get what you pay for...".
>
> I am sure that he really meant the other way, "a RHEL User's
> introduction to Debian (and its far superior tools and ways)"
>
> I hope. I really hope. But since he is is using RH, I am afraid not.
>
> In any case, RPM dependency hell, rings a big bell to me. YUM and
> up2date are know to have significant deficiencies.
>
> I've seen and do have some experience with RHEL and its wonderful
> rolling ABI and API problems, unlike Debian "Stable".

I wonder if it might not be designed this way on purpose. I mean how
better to sell support contracts when the product needs support because
the admins run into trouble? Kind of like the conspiracy theory that
says that a lot of the viruses come from the same people who make the
anti-virus programs, thus creating a business for themselves.

Now of course this can't really be true, but one does have to wonder.

Joe

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Peter Teunissen wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
> I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
> working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
> and need to get up and running in a short time.

Well, that's life.

> I've been looking for
> a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
> the other direction :-)

In Martin Krafft's "The Debian System" book I remember reading a table where
he gives different commands of apt-get and corresponding commands with Yum,
rpm, Gentoo's package manager. That might give you some starting points. I
think it is in the chapter where he discusses aptitude, upgrades etc., I
read this book something like 1 year back, so I could be totally wrong.

Sorry, I currently dont have this book with me, so cant give the page
numbers etc.,

raju
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On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 09:14:51AM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
>
> I wonder if it might not be designed this way on purpose. I mean how
> better to sell support contracts when the product needs support because
> the admins run into trouble? Kind of like the conspiracy theory that
> says that a lot of the viruses come from the same people who make the
> anti-virus programs, thus creating a business for themselves.
>
> Now of course this can't really be true, but one does have to wonder.
>
Using RedHat in my day job has caused me to do some reflection.
Basically, I have come to the conclusion that while I like Debian much
better, RedHat does make a good solid and stable operating system. In
addition, RedHat employs some very well known F/OSS hackers (Tridge,
Alan Cox and others), plus many people whose sole or primary job is to
contribute changes, updates, fixes and so on to various free software
projects.

Remeber, the default business model (so to speak) in the free software
world is to give away the software and charge for the support, custom
modifications and so on. That is what RedHat does. To hammer them for
it is a bit disingenuous. Besides, all of those people have families to
feed and so on. I'd rather see RedHat out there charging quite a bit
and making a nice profit in their enterprise and then allowing the whole
world to benefit from their contributions. The alternative is more like
MS and Apple. They charge quite a bit of money, make a nice profit and
then the only people who benefit are the executives and shareholders.

Regards,

-Roberto

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On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 10:42:15PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
> >
> Yes, I agree with you. I don't think the Red Hat model is bad at all,
> thus my statement about not believing my conspiracy theory. My question
> lies more in the anti-virus world than it does in the Linux world.
>
> I had no intention to bash Red Hat, and if you got that impression from
> my message, then you misinterpreted me, or I was not eloquent enough in
> the first place. I have made it a policy not to say unkind things to
> people who do hard work, but I do express my opinions about said work.
> There are a number of people who earn their living from support, and I
> will most likely be one of them in the near future.
>
I did not mean to imply that you were bashing RedHat. I guess that my
email falls more into the category of a random diatribe. I should have
snipped your words.

> I need to eat too, and the best way for me to earn a living is to live
> on the problems that other people have. I can be thankful that the
> majority of the people in this world do not have a geeks mentality when
> it comes to their computer. It is not an appliance like your DVD
> player, although many people treat it as such. That is what I am
> counting on, because it creates a market for people like me and you.
>
> (And I am not calling you a geek Roberto, however much the statement
> above might imply it)
>
That's funny. I am proud to be a geek! Many people seem to dislike
that moniker. Besides, ever since I read [0] about the difference in
income between a jock and a geek, I decided I liked being a geek :-)

Regards,

-Roberto

[0] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~lbras...es/joke31.html

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On 12-apr-2007, at 3:03, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:45AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>> I've got a great opportunity to promote opensource at my job by
>> working on a BI project for Oxfam. But, I'm forced to use Redhat EL4
>> and need to get up and running in a short time. I've been looking for
>> a Debian user's introduction to Redhat EL4, but only found intro's in
>> the other direction :-)
>>
>> I'm sure others on this list have had the same challenge, can someone
>> give me some pointers to a quick online introduction? I'm looking for
>> stuff like how yum and up2date compare to aptitude, how to safely
>> install downloaded rpm's without interfering with yum's updates, if
>> there are equivalents of repositories like backports etc..
>>
> I would start by installing CentOS (in a Qemu instance or a Xen domU)
> and poke around.
>
>
Yep, first thing I did... friday off, long weekend to immerse myself
in RH :-)

Peter

On 12-apr-2007, at 8:47, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 01:29:51AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
>>
>> I'm a happy Debian user and will not move to RH. But. As I wrote in
>> my question, I'm _forced_ to use RHEL4 at my job.
>>
>> Since more debianites will have been in this situation, I think it's
>> not inappropriate to ask on this list for pointers to a RH intro for
>> Debian users...
>>
>
> Red Hat EL 4 is business-like: if you want to run big Oracle data
> bases
> or similar, it's what your bosses want. It appeals well to the sort
> of business regards Linux as very new, that needs someone to blame and
> is willing to pay support costs "in case". The sort of people that
> deal
> with HP in preference because "well, DEC were such a good company"
> That's its focus.

That's what this world has evolved into; everything is worth what you
paid for it. There will be a moment when someone realizes that he
didn't pay for his wife and start to doubt if her love for him is
genuine. :-/

>
> It's not very workmanlike in the sense of the ideal tools to
> develop on: whenever I install or use RHEL, my first response is
> "where _is_ everything?" - apps. that I'd normally apt-get
> just aren't available.
Yeah, mysql 4.x is stale...
>
> RHEL 4 is still tied to Red Hat Network - yum is still "unofficial" at
> that
> stage IIRC. This has all changed in RHEL5, of course
I find this rpm / yum / up2date stuff confusing. Do I ruin my system
by mixing them? Is yum vs up2date somewhat like aptitude vs apt-get?
>
> There are no backports repositories, though you may get effective
> backports shoved onto your system by updates. Most people I know say
> "Oh, I had to download that from Freshmeat/freshRPMs"
Mmmh, and then I think, where's alien, so I can be sure my rpm's
don't collide with yum & up2date's stuff? But maybe I'm to debian
minded, wanting stuff to be neatly organised... But I'll take such
pure RH questions to another list.

<snip>

Thanx Andy


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On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 11:16:37AM +0200, Peter Teunissen wrote:
>
> That's what this world has evolved into; everything is worth what you
> paid for it. There will be a moment when someone realizes that he
> didn't pay for his wife and start to doubt if her love for him is
> genuine. :-/
>
I have two "maxims" which I am always preaching to the other admins at
work:

- "You wouldn't have that problem if you were running Linux"
- "The more you pay, the less you get" - OR -
- "There is an inverse relationship between price and value in
software"

The form of the last one depends on how "educated" the individual is :-)

Regards,

-Roberto
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Peter Teunissen wrote:

> There will be a moment when someone realizes that he
> didn't pay for his wife and start to doubt if her love for him is
> genuine. :-/
>

hmmm... Ever heard of dowry system? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry

raju

--
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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