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On Friday 23 February 2007 21:54, "Roberto C. Sanchez"
<roberto@connexer.com> was heard to say:
> Of course, nobody faults FDR for spending massive amounts of money
> on the New Deal.

Don't speak so quickly on a subject you do not know.

The New Deal in One Lesson By Christopher Westley
http://www.mises.org/story/1816



- --
"Freedom really means the freedom to make mistakes."

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On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 10:05:11AM -0500, Curt Howland wrote:
> On Friday 23 February 2007 21:54, "Roberto C. Sanchez"
> <roberto@connexer.com> was heard to say:
> > Of course, nobody faults FDR for spending massive amounts of money
> > on the New Deal.
>
> Don't speak so quickly on a subject you do not know.
>
> The New Deal in One Lesson By Christopher Westley
> http://www.mises.org/story/1816
>
Interesting.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

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On 02/24/07 09:05, Curt Howland wrote:
> On Friday 23 February 2007 21:54, "Roberto C. Sanchez"
> <roberto@connexer.com> was heard to say:
>> Of course, nobody faults FDR for spending massive amounts of money
>> on the New Deal.
>
> Don't speak so quickly on a subject you do not know.
>
> The New Deal in One Lesson By Christopher Westley
> http://www.mises.org/story/1816

"You an economist at the university, right?"

"People" don't give a right rat's ass about prices and wages
correcting when they (and their families) are hungry and being
tossed out of their homes.

That's the fatal flaw of economics.

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On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:05:59 -0600, Ron wrote in message
<45E07077.7080802@cox.net>:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> On 02/24/07 09:05, Curt Howland wrote:
> > On Friday 23 February 2007 21:54, "Roberto C. Sanchez"
> > <roberto@connexer.com> was heard to say:
> >> Of course, nobody faults FDR for spending massive amounts of money
> >> on the New Deal.
> >
> > Don't speak so quickly on a subject you do not know.
> >
> > The New Deal in One Lesson By Christopher Westley
> > http://www.mises.org/story/1816


...the one important thing he did, was _panic_ and ban essentially _all_
Wall Street trade, and regulate share holder ownership in companies to
protect the minority share owners so todays business could get started.
Everything else was just panic noise and it probably slowed recovery
too. The Brits went thru the same thing in the 1870'ies and set up
similar legislation to fix this same flaw.

...I'm still waiting for Norway, Russia, Nepal, Belize, China, India, to
name 6 who needs to fix this flaw. Then I'm ready talk business. ;o)

...todays industrial flexibility comes from being able to not only trust
your majority owner and tell him about your inventions, and remain able
enforce spirit of your original agreement with your majority share
owners. Without this industrial flexibility, and without the Red Army
on the East Front, we would probably have lost WWII against Hitler.

> "You an economist at the university, right?"
>
> "People" don't give a right rat's ass about prices and wages
> correcting when they (and their families) are hungry and being
> tossed out of their homes.
>
> That's the fatal flaw of economics.

...it's worse. Interest Rate Capitalism as we all know it, is a
carnivore. It needs food. Human sweat, human toil or human
blood, or oil. In Feudal Europe Jews suffered pogroms whenever
the Feudal Nobelities or Royalty failed to pay their debts to, drum
roll please, the Jew bankiers. Jews were denied land and most
other normal work in most of Europe, leaving mainly banking.


...now, ban interest rates on loans, require profit sharing instead, and
watch what happens to press freedom, freedom of speech, justice and
democracy, they all become business tools.

...imagine I have a set of ideas that will not only cut coal power plant
emissions by half using my technology, but will also suck all 400 years
worth of industrial pollution down into farmland and triple farmland
yield as a bonus so we can feed 28 billion people. Or a stategy. ;o)

...and you have the money etc to get it going. And are happy to share
any profits but worried about the risks. How do you research them?

...an an investor, you will buy the papers if there is a competent press
without Britney hairdoo chasers, you will google if google remains
online, and bloggers who knows anything worthwhile about coal
gasification will prove more valuable than the hairdoo chasers.

...if you want to protect your business tools, you will wanna set
up legislation or a band of thugs to protect them. If you have enough
integrity, over time, they will trust you and the protection system you
set up.

...and, if your comptition offers a better deal, say half the profits and
just my leadership, my ideas, my inspiration, and goes "I'll handle
the costs!" etc, well, where _should_ I take my business. ;o) Etc.
Capitalism as it should be, and _can_ be, and soon too. ;o)

...the Japanese had zero interest rates for about 20 years, but missed
this opportunity to shift gear into a sustainable herbivorous economy,
probably because their economist, just like ours, do not really wanna
learn how to evaluate an investment on its own true merits and
substance, when they can get away with playing games with fancy
products like Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Mine Sweeper.

...where the investors _are_ interested in profit sharing rather than
interest rates, you will need 50 years or so to get it going if you
start from scratch, probably a lot quicker if you start in a networked
democracy, assuming you have the balls to kick all economists back
to school for re-education.

...if you're on the _other_ side, well, you could rename a colony to
remove historical links and rights from the Filistinians, and to keep
your own hands clean in the public view, you could trick an old foe
into gassing half the Jews and scare the rest of them "home".

...always, always, always follow the money. ;o)

--
...med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
....with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Ron Johnson wrote:
> "People" don't give a right rat's ass about prices and wages
> correcting when they (and their families) are hungry and being
> tossed out of their homes.

That implies that the care when they're fat and happy, which today's day
and age clearly shows they don't. That's not a flaw with economics, that's a
flaw with most people's character.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------


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On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 01:16:58AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
>
> That implies that the care when they're fat and happy, which today's day
> and age clearly shows they don't. That's not a flaw with economics, that's a
> flaw with most people's character.
>
I wouldn't even describe it as a character flaw. It is more a fact of
human nature. Look at how much church attendance jumped in the US in
the weeks following 9/11. To many people, the world was not as certain
and secure as they thought, and so they looked for spiritual guidance.
It is the same effect that causes people to not care much about the
economy as long as it is doing good, but then worry like crazy when seem
even the least bit about to change.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

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On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 08:36:42AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 01:16:58AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
> >
> > That implies that the care when they're fat and happy, which today's day
> > and age clearly shows they don't. That's not a flaw with economics, that's a
> > flaw with most people's character.
> >
> I wouldn't even describe it as a character flaw. It is more a fact of
> human nature. Look at how much church attendance jumped in the US in
> the weeks following 9/11. To many people, the world was not as certain
> and secure as they thought, and so they looked for spiritual guidance.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Roberto
>

This actually falls into a similar category as one of my favorite
phrases ever: "There are no atheists in foxholes".


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On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 08:43:32AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
>
> This actually falls into a similar category as one of my favorite
> phrases ever: "There are no atheists in foxholes".

Well, people do like to pretend that they are in control of the world
until they realize that they are not.

Regards,

-Roberto
--
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

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On 02/25/07 03:16, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
>> "People" don't give a right rat's ass about prices and wages
>> correcting when they (and their families) are hungry and being
>> tossed out of their homes.
>
> That implies that the care when they're fat and happy, which today's day
> and age clearly shows they don't.

Why should they, when they're fat and happy?

> That's not a flaw with economics, that's a
> flaw with most people's character.

If it's *most* people's character, then it's not a flaw, it's a
standard character trait of humanity.


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Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 08:43:32AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
>> This actually falls into a similar category as one of my favorite
>> phrases ever: "There are no atheists in foxholes".
>
> Well, people do like to pretend that they are in control of the world
> until they realize that they are not.

....in control of anything even themselves


>
> Regards,
>
> -Roberto


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On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 08:57 -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 08:43:32AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
> >
> > This actually falls into a similar category as one of my favorite
> > phrases ever: "There are no atheists in foxholes".
>
> Well, people do like to pretend that they are in control of the world
> until they realize that they are not.


That's something of a non-sequiter. You seem to be implying that
atheists pretend they are in control of the world. I would say it's
just the reverse: it's the theists who think they are in control, as in
"have all the answers." They look to one of several ancient texts,
purported to be the words of either a deity or prophet, and decide these
things are true, ignoring all evidence to the contrary as well as the
internal contradictions of those texts.

It wasn't atheists who launched the Crusades, imprisoned Galileo,
perpetrated the Inquisition, the Holocaust, or flew planes into the
World Trade Center. It's not atheists who deny evolution or claim that
the Earth is 6,000 years old. You need religion to do those things --
the absolute certainty that your faith determines the laws of the
universe.


--
Michael M. ++ Portland, OR ++ USA
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions
of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to
dream." --S. Jackson


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On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:10:12PM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 01:43:24PM -0800, Michael M. wrote:
> > On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 08:57 -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> > > On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 08:43:32AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This actually falls into a similar category as one of my favorite
> > > > phrases ever: "There are no atheists in foxholes".
> > >
> > > Well, people do like to pretend that they are in control of the world
> > > until they realize that they are not.
> >
> >
> > That's something of a non-sequiter. You seem to be implying that
> > atheists pretend they are in control of the world. I would say it's
> > just the reverse: it's the theists who think they are in control, as in
> > "have all the answers." They look to one of several ancient texts,
> > purported to be the words of either a deity or prophet, and decide these
> > things are true, ignoring all evidence to the contrary as well as the
> > internal contradictions of those texts.
> >
> If you meet a Christian (I can't speak for other faiths) who thinks he
> or she is in control, then that individual is wrong. The Bible
> explicitly states on numerous occasions that God is ultimately in
> control. Of everything.
>
> Out of curiousity, could you provide evidence of something that
> contradicts anything that is written in the Bible?
>

I know that this list has been going off-topic a lot lately, but could
we not get into a religious argument? Politics is far enough, but
arguing over religion is just petty.

Everyone has their own belief, and let it be that way. Arguing over it
isn't going to anyone, it's just going to create grudges in the
community between users.


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On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 01:43:24PM -0800, Michael M. wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 08:57 -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 08:43:32AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
> > >
> > > This actually falls into a similar category as one of my favorite
> > > phrases ever: "There are no atheists in foxholes".
> >
> > Well, people do like to pretend that they are in control of the world
> > until they realize that they are not.
>
>
> That's something of a non-sequiter. You seem to be implying that
> atheists pretend they are in control of the world. I would say it's
> just the reverse: it's the theists who think they are in control, as in
> "have all the answers." They look to one of several ancient texts,
> purported to be the words of either a deity or prophet, and decide these
> things are true, ignoring all evidence to the contrary as well as the
> internal contradictions of those texts.
>
If you meet a Christian (I can't speak for other faiths) who thinks he
or she is in control, then that individual is wrong. The Bible
explicitly states on numerous occasions that God is ultimately in
control. Of everything.

Out of curiousity, could you provide evidence of something that
contradicts anything that is written in the Bible?

> It wasn't atheists who launched the Crusades, imprisoned Galileo,
> perpetrated the Inquisition, the Holocaust, or flew planes into the
> World Trade Center. It's not atheists who deny evolution or claim that
> the Earth is 6,000 years old. You need religion to do those things --
> the absolute certainty that your faith determines the laws of the
> universe.
>
First, you are attributing to Christians actions which are the result of
human nature. The key point of human nature is resistance to change.
The same can be said of the thousands of years of conflict among the
peoples of Asia (especially the Japan, Korea, China are) and yet they
are not predomitantly Christian.

Now, the Crusades were launched in 1095 after over *400* years of Muslim
rule in Jerusalem. So, who's the instigator now?

The Inquisition was a product of the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman
Catholic Church, BTW, is an institution. It does not represent all of
Christianity, only those believe the Roman church's claims of being the
"one true church."

The people who flew planes into the WTC towers were mislead by their so
called "religious" leaders. In one of the best sermons I ever hear
preached, the preacher said "nothing will take you Hell faster than
religion." He is right, because it is all about faith in Jesus Christ.
You can belong to as many churches as you want and if you don't believe
and accept salvation, then you are doomed.

You are also conflating religion and faith. My faith in the Word of God
tells me that it is true. When the Bible says something, I believe it.
Religion is not that. Besides, my faith does not determine the laws of
this unvierse. My faith is determined by those laws.

Of course, I think it takes lots more "faith" to believe that everything
we see and can't see is an accident or happy coincidence than it does to
believe that an omnipotent God created it all.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

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On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:16:39PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:10:12PM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 01:43:24PM -0800, Michael M. wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 08:57 -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 08:43:32AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > This actually falls into a similar category as one of my favorite
> > > > > phrases ever: "There are no atheists in foxholes".
> > > >
> > > > Well, people do like to pretend that they are in control of the world
> > > > until they realize that they are not.
> > >
> > >
> > > That's something of a non-sequiter. You seem to be implying that
> > > atheists pretend they are in control of the world. I would say it's
> > > just the reverse: it's the theists who think they are in control, asin
> > > "have all the answers." They look to one of several ancient texts,
> > > purported to be the words of either a deity or prophet, and decide these
> > > things are true, ignoring all evidence to the contrary as well as the
> > > internal contradictions of those texts.
> > >
> > If you meet a Christian (I can't speak for other faiths) who thinks he
> > or she is in control, then that individual is wrong. The Bible
> > explicitly states on numerous occasions that God is ultimately in
> > control. Of everything.
> >
> > Out of curiousity, could you provide evidence of something that
> > contradicts anything that is written in the Bible?
> >
>
> I know that this list has been going off-topic a lot lately, but could
> we not get into a religious argument? Politics is far enough, but
> arguing over religion is just petty.
>
> Everyone has their own belief, and let it be that way. Arguing over it
> isn't going to anyone, it's just going to create grudges in the
> community between users.

Sorry. He made a number of unsubstianted claims, including that
athiests are somehow superior because they are all enlightened. He
claims that religious people are stupid and basically use ancient texts
are a crutch. Nevermind that the Chrisitan nation of the USA (it was
founded as a Christian nation by Christians) has developed far more
scientific advancement than the oh-so-enlightened athiest USSR ever
could have hoped. Even if you restrict the comparison to the years
during which the USSR was in existence, I am willing to bet that
scientific advance in the US oustripped the USSR by an order of
magnitude.

I was just asking that he substantiate his claim. I am not trying to
start a religious argument. If he has valid evidence, then I will
concede the point. Though, I doubt any such evidence exists.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

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Michael Pobega wrote:
> Everyone has their own belief, and let it be that way.

I'd rather not. Personally when someone is showing signs of being
delusional in public I think it is better to confront them at their aberrant
behavior for their own safety and the safety of others.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------


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Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> If you meet a Christian (I can't speak for other faiths) who thinks he
> or she is in control, then that individual is wrong. The Bible
> explicitly states on numerous occasions that God is ultimately in
> control. Of everything.

But you missed the point, Roberto. A Christian who thinks that *his*god
and not someone else's god (or no god at all) is in control of all thingsis
asserting his control by proxy. Look at it from the Atheist's point of view,
god doesn't exist, that only leaves the individual standing in front of them
telling them an imaginary being controls all. The Theist is claiming to have
answers, that they are right, absolutely. What part of that is not thinking
they control all?

> Out of curiousity, could you provide evidence of something that
> contradicts anything that is written in the Bible?

I submit the Bible. Google "Bible Contradiction" if you want more than
enough examples. I'll settle for just one.

# The entire tenth chapter (of Genesis) is the first of many boring
genealogies (see 1 Chr.1-9, Mt.1:1-17, Lk.3:23-28 for other examples) that we
are told to avoid in 1 Tim.1:4 and Tit.3:9 ("Avoid foolish questions and
genealogies.") 10:1-32

> You are also conflating religion and faith. My faith in the Word of God
> tells me that it is true. When the Bible says something, I believe it.

You do? Really? So, how many Sabbath breakers have you killed today?
Answer me honestly. I'm guessing you're so faithful because of Isaiah 40:8,
"The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for
ever." or even Peter and the Psalms where it is repeated "The law of the Lord
is perfect." If so then clearly you follow Exodus 31:15, "For six days, work
is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD.
Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death." Today isthe
Sabbath, Wal-Mart is open, people are working, lock and load soldier!

I'm guessing that you aren't off killing random Wal-Mart employees so
obviously somewhere you have chosen to disbelieve that tidbit of the Bible.

And no, I'm not going to give you the namby-pamby Jesus excuse. IE, the
old defense that the New Testament trumps the Old Testament and since theNT
is nicer than the OT you're off the hook for not committing mass murder. "For
I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Phariseesand
the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
- Matthew 5:20.

> Of course, I think it takes lots more "faith" to believe that everything
> we see and can't see is an accident or happy coincidence than it does to
> believe that an omnipotent God created it all.

Really? They you get into the regression problem. If the universe is so
complex that it simply had to be created and your god is so complex we could
never understand him.... surely then he was created? If he, an obviouslymore
complex construct than the universe he supposedly created just appeared then
why do you feel that people who believe that a far simpler construct, that of
the universe itself, simply was without resorting to intellectual slight of
hand? In both cases we believe something just was, difference is your's is a
lot more fantastical.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------


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Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> He
> claims that religious people are stupid and basically use ancient texts
> are a crutch.

Well, don't you? I mean you cherry pick the nice bits and reject thenasty.

> Nevermind that the Chrisitan nation of the USA (it was
> founded as a Christian nation by Christians) has developed far more
> scientific advancement than the oh-so-enlightened athiest USSR ever
> could have hoped.

Nevermind that the founding fathers were not Christian, did not form a
Christian state and that 90%+ of all scientists in the US are Atheist.
Furthermore it ignores the fact that the USSR wasn't horrible because of it's
secularism but because of it's totalitarianism and lack of rationality onthe
other end of the spectrum.

> I was just asking that he substantiate his claim. I am not trying to
> start a religious argument. If he has valid evidence, then I will
> concede the point. Though, I doubt any such evidence exists.

It does exist, you're just of the habit of rejecting it.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------


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On 02/25/07 16:30, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Michael Pobega wrote:
>> Everyone has their own belief, and let it be that way.
>
> I'd rather not. Personally when someone is showing signs of being
> delusional in public I think it is better to confront them at their aberrant
> behavior for their own safety and the safety of others.

I understand your compunction, but it won't , and will only inflame.


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On 02/25/07 16:20, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:16:39PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
>> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:10:12PM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
>>> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 01:43:24PM -0800, Michael M. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 08:57 -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 08:43:32AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
[snip]
> are a crutch. Nevermind that the Chrisitan nation of the USA (it was
> founded as a Christian nation by Christians) has developed far more

So... the United States is a theocracy?

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On 02/25/07 17:08, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
[snip]
> Christian state and that 90%+ of all scientists in the US are Atheist.

95.4% of all statistics are bogus. So is this one unless you've got
a hard reference.

> Furthermore it ignores the fact that the USSR wasn't horrible because of it's
> secularism but because of it's totalitarianism and lack of rationality on the
> other end of the spectrum.

True.

But are there any (non-trivial) secular non-totalitarian governments?


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On 02/25/07 17:04, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
[snip]
> And no, I'm not going to give you the namby-pamby Jesus excuse. IE, the
> old defense that the New Testament trumps the Old Testament and since the NT
> is nicer than the OT you're off the hook for not committing mass murder. "For
> I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and
> the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
> - Matthew 5:20.

Then you don't understand the Christian meaning of "righteousness".

"What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The
foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you
shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your
soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The
second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is
no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so
you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my
disciples, if you love one another." (NIV, John 13:34-35)

>> Of course, I think it takes lots more "faith" to believe that everything
>> we see and can't see is an accident or happy coincidence than it does to
>> believe that an omnipotent God created it all.

Well that's a paradox.

> Really? They you get into the regression problem. If the universe is so
> complex that it simply had to be created and your god is so complex we could
> never understand him.... surely then he was created? If he, an obviously more
> complex construct than the universe he supposedly created just appeared then
> why do you feel that people who believe that a far simpler construct, that of
> the universe itself, simply was without resorting to intellectual slight of
> hand? In both cases we believe something just was, difference is your's is a
> lot more fantastical.

1. "God has always been."

2. "All matter/energy Just Appeared."

Which is more fantastical?

Even I, an atheist, think that #2 is more fantastical.


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Ron Johnson wrote:
> "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The
> foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you
> shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your
> soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The
> second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is
> no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)

Luke 14:26

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and
children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my
disciple.

> "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so
> you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my
> disciples, if you love one another." (NIV, John 13:34-35)

And as I said before to Roberto, if God's Law is perfect (as it says many
times in the NT and OT) and God's Law is expressed, at least in part, in the
OT then one must follow the OT. Otherwise you're choosing the portions of the
Bible you want to follow and rejecting those you don't.

> 1. "God has always been."

> 2. "All matter/energy Just Appeared."

> Even I, an atheist, think that #2 is more fantastical.

Really? Why? What is your answer to the regression problem? To
terminate it one has to concede that something, somewhere, had to just exist.
If it be a creator, then that creator just existed. BTW, who's to say the
creator isn't matter/energy we've not discovered yet? How does #2 get tobe
more fantastical than #1 when they could be one and the same?

Is it a perfect answer? No. Is it *the* answer. No. Is it simplerthan
something more complex than all of creation just existing just so that all of
creation could be created so as to get around the just existing problem? Yes.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------


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