Hi, I live in the UK so would appreciate the opinions of UK PHP
programmers formost but not only.

I really want to get into the PHP development industry. Im 25 years
old and live in Manchester. I dont have a Degree but I do have a good
A-Level in Computing where I learned to program in Turbo Pascal.

In December I finish my Undergraduate Certificate in Web Applications
Development which I have been working on for the last two years with
the Open University.

It covered lots of good stuff like XHTML/CSS/Javascript and various
scripting languages such as ColdFusion/ASP (not dot net) using
VBScript/PHP and SQL with loads of standards stuff and much more.

I have also been using PHP as a 'serious' hobby for the last few years
and trying my best to learn all I can about the language, even though
I've only just started learning OOP stuff in the last month or so.

Ive been reading several books such as Zend Certification Study Guide/
PHP5 Objects, Patterns and Practice etc and hope to take the ZCE soon.

The thing is, the more i read, the more i find that i 'should' know
but I dont, such as loads of Design Patterns and Frameworks and such.

What i would like advice on is how much am I really expected to know
when first starting out? Should i know all about design patterns/
frameworks/PEAR extensions etc or do you pick this stuff up along the
way?

What I would like is any advice of what I should and shoulnt be doing
in order to get my first PHP dev job. Or what i should definately
know, and not bother with?

What routes do you guys come from?

Surely if I go for a 'Junior PHP Developer' position, they cant expect
me to know "everything" right? or do they?


Any advice appreciated,

Regards,

Paul.

"macca" <ptmcnally@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1189530309.389957.40220@r34g2000hsd.googlegro ups.com...
> Hi, I live in the UK so would appreciate the opinions of UK PHP
> programmers formost but not only.
>
> I really want to get into the PHP development industry. Im 25 years
> old and live in Manchester. I dont have a Degree but I do have a good
> A-Level in Computing where I learned to program in Turbo Pascal.
>
> In December I finish my Undergraduate Certificate in Web Applications
> Development which I have been working on for the last two years with
> the Open University.
>
> It covered lots of good stuff like XHTML/CSS/Javascript and various
> scripting languages such as ColdFusion/ASP (not dot net) using
> VBScript/PHP and SQL with loads of standards stuff and much more.
>
> I have also been using PHP as a 'serious' hobby for the last few years
> and trying my best to learn all I can about the language, even though
> I've only just started learning OOP stuff in the last month or so.
>
> Ive been reading several books such as Zend Certification Study Guide/
> PHP5 Objects, Patterns and Practice etc and hope to take the ZCE soon.
>
> The thing is, the more i read, the more i find that i 'should' know
> but I dont, such as loads of Design Patterns and Frameworks and such.
>
> What i would like advice on is how much am I really expected to know
> when first starting out? Should i know all about design patterns/
> frameworks/PEAR extensions etc or do you pick this stuff up along the
> way?
>
> What I would like is any advice of what I should and shoulnt be doing
> in order to get my first PHP dev job. Or what i should definately
> know, and not bother with?
>
> What routes do you guys come from?
>
> Surely if I go for a 'Junior PHP Developer' position, they cant expect
> me to know "everything" right? or do they?
>
>
> Any advice appreciated,

as with everything in life, it depends. i've hired people before who had
zero php experience and only some programming exposure in general...but i
could tell they were logical, liked to company, and viewed the job as a
long-term committment...so, i invested in them and brought them up to speed.
others who were php gurus i wouldn't even throw them a bone when it was
apparent they were either just out for big money, using my company as a
short-term stepping stone, or were just flat-out prima donnas.

anything can be taught...except for things i value most, like loyalty,
respect, and fairness. being thoughtful on all levels of mentality is very
key, from logic to hospitality.

good luck.

> How do I become a professional PHP Developer in the UK?

Get a job as a PHP programmer. Seriously, there is no school like
practice. No theory can teach you the real world with real customers.

> It covered lots of good stuff like XHTML/CSS/Javascript and various
> scripting languages such as ColdFusion/ASP (not dot net) using
> VBScript/PHP and SQL with loads of standards stuff and much more.

Good. Know where you can find the standards when you look up something.
A fine set of colleagues to ask questions to or discuss things with get
you even further.

> I have also been using PHP as a 'serious' hobby for the last few years
> and trying my best to learn all I can about the language, even though
> I've only just started learning OOP stuff in the last month or so.

Learning OOP is good. Where I come from (not the UK), almost every PHP
job "requires" object oriented skills, but do not put it into practice.
Companies just ask it. They probably like the buzzword.

> The thing is, the more i read, the more i find that i 'should' know
> but I dont, such as loads of Design Patterns and Frameworks and such.

You will never get over it. As a programmer, and especially a web
programmer, there is an awful lot to know. You will never be finished
learning.

> What i would like advice on is how much am I really expected to know
> when first starting out? Should i know all about design patterns/
> frameworks/PEAR extensions etc or do you pick this stuff up along the
> way?

Pick them up along the way. Some patterns and frameworks seem so
complicated that doing it the quick and dirty way first can to see
the advantages.

> What I would like is any advice of what I should and shoulnt be doing
> in order to get my first PHP dev job. Or what i should definately
> know, and not bother with?

I can only recommend that you read a book about security in web
programming, since you seem to have some basis in the programming and
web standards.

> What routes do you guys come from?

I started as a technical draftsman, became a Lisp programmer, switched
to Visual Basic, then PHP, ASP(VB) .NET and came back screaming to PHP.

> Surely if I go for a 'Junior PHP Developer' position, they cant expect
> me to know "everything" right? or do they?

Off course not. And do not be ashamed to learn. A colleague who is
willing to learn is worth more than ten who think they know it all.

Good luck,
--
Willem Bogaerts

Application smith
Kratz B.V.
http://www.kratz.nl/

Willem Bogaerts wrote:
>> How do I become a professional PHP Developer in the UK?
>
> Get a job as a PHP programmer. Seriously, there is no school like
> practice. No theory can teach you the real world with real customers.

wanted:
PHP programmer
No experience necessary.
Fax resume to 1-800-555-dotbomb

On 11 Sep, 18:05, macca <ptmcna...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Surely if I go for a 'Junior PHP Developer' position, they cant expect
> me to know "everything" right? or do they?

Not for 15-24k, no.

macca said:
> Hi, I live in the UK so would appreciate the opinions of UK PHP
> programmers formost but not only.
>
Keep an eye on job advert. Even if they say "Looking for senior php dev", fire
of a CV with a cover letter explaining you have an interest in the area, some
small level of experience and are interested in a junior position and would
appreciate it if they would keep you in mind should any such positions come
up. Even if you take fairly low pay for the first 6 months, after proving
yourself to at least be a hard worker willing to learn it will only go up.

Best of luck.

D.
--
Fermat was right.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Being an outsider, its quite difficult to know what to expect when
first starting out.

Your comments are very ful and appreciated.

Regards,

Paul McNally.

Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> Willem Bogaerts wrote:
>>> How do I become a professional PHP Developer in the UK?
>>
>> Get a job as a PHP programmer. Seriously, there is no school like
>> practice. No theory can teach you the real world with real customers.
>
> wanted:
> PHP programmer
> No experience necessary.
> Fax resume to 1-800-555-dotbomb
>
>
>

Not at all. You need to start someplace! Normally larger companies are
better for entry level jobs; they have more resources to the newbie.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

On Sep 11, 11:05 am, macca <ptmcna...@googlemail.com> wrote:

As others have said, get any kind of a web-related job
and get going. But that only goes so far. To rise up
from an entry level job you need skills. Else you'll
get stuck, like mosquito to fly paper.

So get yourself a personal website, hosted on a cheap, shared-host
linux box and start building it with php. Learn how to
interact with a mysql database, even if it doesn't really
accomplish anything at first. At least you'll get those skills.

Gradually work toward generating all your pages from code.
Design and build your own content management system for
displaying photos, dealing with file uploads, bulletin
boards, etc.

Learn how to program Java and Java Servlets. Get ofbiz running on your
local
linux box. Get a linux box if you don't have one. A lot of complex
high-end business logic gets evaluated by server side Java.
Php and php-xmlrpc can be a handy rapid-app front end to those
services.

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>> wanted:
>> PHP programmer
>> No experience necessary.
>> Fax resume to 1-800-555-dotbomb
>
> Not at all. You need to start someplace! Normally larger companies are
> better for entry level jobs; they have more resources to the newbie.

I'm not aware of *any* company that hires programmers who don't yet know
how to program. It's just not a field that lends itself well to OJT.

But you're probably right. I have noticed that experience and
competence aren't the highest priorities for large corporations. Towing
the corporate line can cover a LOT of shortcomings.

On 12 Sep, 13:23, salmobytes <Sandy.Pittendr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 11, 11:05 am, macca <ptmcna...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> As others have said, get any kind of a web-related job
> and get going. But that only goes so far. To rise up
> from an entry level job you need skills. Else you'll
> get stuck, like mosquito to fly paper.
>
> So get yourself a personal website, hosted on a cheap, shared-host
> linux box and start building it with php. Learn how to
> interact with a mysql database, even if it doesn't really
> accomplish anything at first. At least you'll get those skills.
>

Certainly the best way to learn is to do.

Having said that, getting support from more experienced developers is
a huge boost too.

Rather than going off and doing your own thing before you land that
dream job, I would recommend looking for open-source php projects who
need (volunteer) - try Sourceforge.net

Perhaps its just because PHP is relatively young in the professional
programming market - but so far the employment market hasn't become
certificate driven (as it is for most other IT skills). So being able
to point to a significant open-source project and say I did that (even
if you only changed one line of code!) will look great on your CV.

> Learn how to program Java and Java Servlets. Get ofbiz running on your
> local
> linux box. Get a linux box if you don't have one. A lot of complex
> high-end business logic gets evaluated by server side Java.
> Php and php-xmlrpc can be a handy rapid-app front end to those
> services.

I'd definitely recommend that anyone choosing programming as a career
learn more than one programming language (a friend recently suggested
that they should learn a new one every year) but you need to at least
be proficient in one.

I'd stay well clear of Java though unless you're looking for a job as
a Java programmer. (before the flames start - I currently get
reasonably well paid to support some large Oracle/Java applications,
and previously ran a PHP shop). Do learn SQL and Javascript.

C.

Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>
>>> wanted:
>>> PHP programmer
>>> No experience necessary.
>>> Fax resume to 1-800-555-dotbomb
>>
>> Not at all. You need to start someplace! Normally larger companies
>> are better for entry level jobs; they have more resources to the
>> newbie.
>
> I'm not aware of *any* company that hires programmers who don't yet know
> how to program. It's just not a field that lends itself well to OJT.
>
> But you're probably right. I have noticed that experience and
> competence aren't the highest priorities for large corporations. Towing
> the corporate line can cover a LOT of shortcomings.
>
>
>
>

I didn't say the company would hire programmers who don't know how to
program!

But many companies hire people with limited programming experience for
entry level jobs. The employees don't have as many bad habits to unlearn.

I've been on some projects with "experienced programmers". They're fast
and good, but some of them have been a real PITA with their
"know-it-all" attitude.

OTOH, I've had some relatively new programmers on projects. Sure, these
guys are slower and need more . And they can't be expected to do
more of the advanced work experienced programmers do. But they make up
for it in their dedication. Experience is NOT everything.

As for competence - I don't know any company who will put up with a
person who's unable to do a job and not willing to learn to do it
(unless there is a union involved). In most companies it has nothing to
do with "toeing the corporate line" - rather a willingness and ability
to improve. Not doing the job and not improving and you're gone.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

C. wrote:
> On 12 Sep, 13:23, salmobytes <Sandy.Pittendr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 11, 11:05 am, macca <ptmcna...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> As others have said, get any kind of a web-related job
>> and get going. But that only goes so far. To rise up
>> from an entry level job you need skills. Else you'll
>> get stuck, like mosquito to fly paper.
>>
>> So get yourself a personal website, hosted on a cheap, shared-host
>> linux box and start building it with php. Learn how to
>> interact with a mysql database, even if it doesn't really
>> accomplish anything at first. At least you'll get those skills.
>>
>
> Certainly the best way to learn is to do.
>
> Having said that, getting support from more experienced developers is
> a huge boost too.
>
> Rather than going off and doing your own thing before you land that
> dream job, I would recommend looking for open-source php projects who
> need (volunteer) - try Sourceforge.net
>
> Perhaps its just because PHP is relatively young in the professional
> programming market - but so far the employment market hasn't become
> certificate driven (as it is for most other IT skills). So being able
> to point to a significant open-source project and say I did that (even
> if you only changed one line of code!) will look great on your CV.
>
>> Learn how to program Java and Java Servlets. Get ofbiz running on your
>> local
>> linux box. Get a linux box if you don't have one. A lot of complex
>> high-end business logic gets evaluated by server side Java.
>> Php and php-xmlrpc can be a handy rapid-app front end to those
>> services.
>
> I'd definitely recommend that anyone choosing programming as a career
> learn more than one programming language (a friend recently suggested
> that they should learn a new one every year) but you need to at least
> be proficient in one.
>
> I'd stay well clear of Java though unless you're looking for a job as
> a Java programmer. (before the flames start - I currently get
> reasonably well paid to support some large Oracle/Java applications,
> and previously ran a PHP shop). Do learn SQL and Javascript.
>
> C.
>

Yep, I agree - you need more than one language, and JS and SQL are good
complements to PHP. But I think one a year is too much. If you learn
something and don't use it, you'll lose it. Learn languages as you will
(or plan to) need them so you can use them (almost) right away.

As for Java - there are other advantages, like getting you more into an
OO mindset. This might be one exception to the "use it or lose it"
above - the techniques can carry over to PHP and other languages.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

"Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote in message
newsCMFi.6935$JD.6344@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net ...
> Willem Bogaerts wrote:
>>> How do I become a professional PHP Developer in the UK?
>>
>> Get a job as a PHP programmer. Seriously, there is no school like
>> practice. No theory can teach you the real world with real customers.
>
> wanted:
> PHP programmer
> No experience necessary.
> Fax resume to 1-800-555-dotbomb

obviously this is how you found your current job, sanders. sad that they
still have no skill requirements for you. at least you're not letting them
down. ;^)

"Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote in message
news:jXQFi.14916$3x.5090@newssvr25.news.prodigy.ne t...
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>
>>> wanted:
>>> PHP programmer
>>> No experience necessary.
>>> Fax resume to 1-800-555-dotbomb
>>
>> Not at all. You need to start someplace! Normally larger companies are
>> better for entry level jobs; they have more resources to the newbie.
>
> I'm not aware of *any* company that hires programmers who don't yet know
> how to program. It's just not a field that lends itself well to OJT.

mine does. and i've hired two people in the past five years who had *no*
programming experience. what you're forgetting is that php is easily
learned. i may want to hire someone like this so that in appreciation for my
investment, they want to stay around rather than job hop. i also may need
their expertise in their field of competency...which can be more difficult
to teach an experienced developer (or one of any programming experience for
that matter) that it would be to teach them php...that would be a tremendous
find and a great return on investment.

> Perhaps its just because PHP is relatively young in the professional
> programming market - but so far the employment market hasn't become
> certificate driven (as it is for most other IT skills). So being able
> to point to a significant open-source project and say I did that (even
> if you only changed one line of code!) will look great on your CV.

let me tell you how pissed off i would be having been suckered into giving
such a person my time to schedule and hold an interview only to find out
that they only changed one line of code. while it may look great on a cover
letter, it is telling of the person's character when i ask specific
questions about their experience(s) and found out that the truth was *far*
from reality. i won't hire liars or those prone to exageration of such
magnitude. why do you think the REST of the programming market is now FORCED
to rely on certifications?!!!

this could even back-fire if you're trying to get a php job in an area where
php jobs are abundant. i may just call up php company x - whom i know is
hiring also because i have to compete with their salary and benefit
offerings so i can get the best candidates - and tell them about the
discussion you and i had about your little one-liner change. it's a small
world after all.

>So get yourself a personal website, hosted on a cheap, shared-host

Done this in the past. I also run a win2003 Server at home running
Apache/PHP/MySQL. Its not running on Linux/UNIX because i quite like
the fact that I can access it through a remote desktop
connection nice and easy through my laptop.

>linux box and start building it with php. Learn how to
>interact with a mysql database, even if it doesn't really
>accomplish anything at first. At least you'll get those skills.

Ive been using MySQL for a while now and can get php to interact with
it just fine. I can create databases/tables using MySQL's DDL(SQL),
design Entity-Relationship diagrams etc but I havent used PDO yet
though.


>Gradually work toward generating all your pages from code.
>Design and build your own content management system for
>displaying photos, dealing with file uploads, bulletin
>boards, etc.

I've done this also. I've created gallery website where people can
create accounts, upload images etc. It's not online any more though
because i was just trying to learn how to do it really, not have it
live.


I've created appointment booking systems using php calendar functions
and mysql such as http://www.valenciaworld.eu with back-end staff
searchable interfaces to the database.

Ive created a property auction website where the client can add
properties/images etc and the property is put on a timer with search
functionality linked to MySQL, dynamic thumnail genration etc but this
was never finished because the person who asked me to do it never paid
up!

Ive interacted with web services such as on the yahooAPI on
valenciaworld.eu etc

What I'm trying to say is that i CAN code. I can get things done. But
on a professional level, there will be certain ways of doing things
that i may not have stuck to such as design patterns and using OOP
techniques and stuff.

I think, after i finish my Web Apps course in December i'll take my
ZCE and start applying for jobs in the new year.

I may even brush up on my MySQL skills (which are already quite good
thanks to the Open Univerity) and consider the MySQL certification,
but this may be overkill before I start. I intend to do it anyway but
I could always do it and work at the same time I suppose.


Paul.

On Sep 12, 8:55 am, macca <ptmcna...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> What I'm trying to say is that i CAN code. I can get things done. But
> on a professional level, there will be certain ways of doing things
> Paul

I've spent the last 12 years working for the (Dilbert-like) man.
What I want now is to be self-employed again (did that for 20 years
in the building trades). I don't know about the UK, but cubicle
jobs are a dime a dozen over hear. Freelancing, and making a decent
living, is harder. And it has more to do with social networking skills
than
coding skills. That's what I'm working on.

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>> But you're probably right. I have noticed that experience and
>> competence aren't the highest priorities for large corporations.
>> Towing the corporate line can cover a LOT of shortcomings.
>
> I didn't say the company would hire programmers who don't know how to
> program!
>
> But many companies hire people with limited programming experience for
> entry level jobs. The employees don't have as many bad habits to unlearn.

Big corporations.
Blecch.


> I've been on some projects with "experienced programmers". They're fast
> and good, but some of them have been a real PITA with their
> "know-it-all" attitude.
>
> OTOH, I've had some relatively new programmers on projects. Sure, these
> guys are slower and need more . And they can't be expected to do
> more of the advanced work experienced programmers do. But they make up
> for it in their dedication. Experience is NOT everything.
>
> As for competence - I don't know any company who will put up with a
> person who's unable to do a job and not willing to learn to do it
> (unless there is a union involved). In most companies it has nothing to
> do with "toeing the corporate line" - rather a willingness and ability
> to improve. Not doing the job and not improving and you're gone.

That's not my experience with big corporations, but in my defense - my
experience with those kinds of folks is with telecom and marketing
companies which have, thank God, mostly been wiped from the face of the
Earth.

So when someone asks about good career paths - they're not tops on my
list of recommendations.

Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>
>>> But you're probably right. I have noticed that experience and
>>> competence aren't the highest priorities for large corporations.
>>> Towing the corporate line can cover a LOT of shortcomings.
>>
>> I didn't say the company would hire programmers who don't know how to
>> program!
>>
>> But many companies hire people with limited programming experience for
>> entry level jobs. The employees don't have as many bad habits to
>> unlearn.
>
> Big corporations.
> Blecch.
>
>

I don't know. I worked for IBM for 13 years. Left when I had a chance
to get a good separation package and start a consulting business.

Right now I'm almost (that's ALMOST) sorry I left, though. August 1st
would have been my 30th anniversary and I could have retired with a
so-so pension. But I've had a lot more fun than I would have ever had
by staying there, and seen a lot more of the world.

>> I've been on some projects with "experienced programmers". They're
>> fast and good, but some of them have been a real PITA with their
>> "know-it-all" attitude.
>>
>> OTOH, I've had some relatively new programmers on projects. Sure,
>> these guys are slower and need more . And they can't be expected
>> to do more of the advanced work experienced programmers do. But they
>> make up for it in their dedication. Experience is NOT everything.
>>
>> As for competence - I don't know any company who will put up with a
>> person who's unable to do a job and not willing to learn to do it
>> (unless there is a union involved). In most companies it has nothing
>> to do with "toeing the corporate line" - rather a willingness and
>> ability to improve. Not doing the job and not improving and you're gone.
>
> That's not my experience with big corporations, but in my defense - my
> experience with those kinds of folks is with telecom and marketing
> companies which have, thank God, mostly been wiped from the face of the
> Earth.
>

Now you know why. :-)

> So when someone asks about good career paths - they're not tops on my
> list of recommendations.

They do have their advantages.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

<comp.lang.php>
<macca>
<Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:05:09 -0000>
<1189530309.389957.40220@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups. com>

> Hi, I live in the UK so would appreciate the opinions of UK PHP
> programmers formost but not only.
>
> I really want to get into the PHP development industry. Im 25 years
> old and live in Manchester. I dont have a Degree but I do have a good
> A-Level in Computing where I learned to program in Turbo Pascal.
>

My advice would be to take a couple of months off and build some
database driven websites .

These can be anything and the actual theme doesnt really matter as you
would be showing any potential employers that your not a i can do this i
can do that type of day dreamer guy .

Some employers are more interested in you producing the goods rather
than knowing what to say at a interview .

Showing them a mini portfolio also shows a potential employer that you
can think for yourself and be creative and that your not a braindead
'feed the monkey' retard .

A question .....

Are you stupid to ignore a troll ? .


--
(c) The Amazing Krustov

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>> Big corporations.
>> Blecch.
>
> I don't know. I worked for IBM for 13 years. Left when I had a chance
> to get a good separation package and start a consulting business.

Yeah - the *pay* is good.


> Right now I'm almost (that's ALMOST) sorry I left, though. August 1st
> would have been my 30th anniversary and I could have retired with a
> so-so pension. But I've had a lot more fun than I would have ever had
> by staying there, and seen a lot more of the world.

I suppose one could say that corporations are like High Schools.
Some people find that's the place for them - and never leave.
Some leave - but pine forever for the good old days.
The rest - graduate.


>> So when someone asks about good career paths - they're not tops on my
>> list of recommendations.
>
> They do have their advantages.

Yeah - the same advantages as military service.

Krustov wrote:

> My advice would be to take a couple of months off and build some
> database driven websites .

I gotta agree - whether you're experienced or a newbie - that's the best
advice today.

At the beginning of the dotcom, just *wanting* a programmer job was
enough to get one.

But now, now that there are a lot of experienced web developers around,
you gotta show your chops - and that means pointing a prospective
employer at a web site or two.

I don't have any world-facing web sites, so now that I'm trying to get a
"real" job, I'm having a heck of a time when I get asked to show
examples of my work.

And I've been programming professionally since WELL before the turn of
the century.