So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.

And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
cocktail napkins... or something like that.

They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well,
simple before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW
there's gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that
called me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?

So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.

Here's the situation:

I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the
project to be finished sometime in January.

*The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*

Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.

I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
hourly recruiter jobs.

Any suggs?

"Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote in message
news:K1_Hi.4702$Sd4.2417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>
> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>
> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well, simple
> before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW there's
> gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that called
> me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>
> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time, and
> for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>
> Here's the situation:
>
> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the project
> to be finished sometime in January.
>
> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I don't
> want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>
> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it in
> a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> hourly recruiter jobs.
>
> Any suggs?

How can I get in touch with that recruiter for other jobs?

Shelly
(actively looking for work right now in Central Florida or telecommuting).

Shelly wrote:
> "Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote in message

>> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
>> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
>> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
>> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
>> hourly recruiter jobs.
>>
>> Any suggs?
>
> How can I get in touch with that recruiter for other jobs?
>
> Shelly
> (actively looking for work right now in Central Florida or telecommuting).

If you posted under your own email address, you'll know momentarily.

"Shelly" <sheldonlg.news@asap-consult.com> wrote in message
news:13f0savrpdmlq37@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote in message
> news:K1_Hi.4702$Sd4.2417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
>> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>>
>> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
>> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
>> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>>
>> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well, simple
>> before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW there's
>> gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that called
>> me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>>
>> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
>> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
>> and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>>
>> Here's the situation:
>>
>> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the project
>> to be finished sometime in January.
>>
>> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I don't
>> want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>>
>> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
>> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
>> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
>> in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>>
>> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
>> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
>> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
>> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
>> hourly recruiter jobs.
>>
>> Any suggs?
>
> How can I get in touch with that recruiter for other jobs?
>
> Shelly
> (actively looking for work right now in Central Florida or telecommuting).

what background do you have...we're always hiring. company is in alabama, i
work from home in texas...have been since 2002. if you can showcase some of
your work (most important is how you program and not necessarily what you've
worked on/with), i may hook you up.

"Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman.net> wrote in message
news:K1_Hi.4702$Sd4.2417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>
> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>
> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well, simple
> before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW there's
> gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that called
> me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>
> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time, and
> for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>
> Here's the situation:
>
> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the project
> to be finished sometime in January.
>
> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I don't
> want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>
> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it in
> a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> hourly recruiter jobs.
>
> Any suggs?

i think you've still got me killfiled, sanders. however...

generally speaking, it is completely ethical to bill for the time it took
you to create your 'framework' plus the specific functionality they desire.
you should not build for any of that framework that will not be used
specifically in the product you will sell them.

i have project-builded several clients. you would be shooting yourself in
the foot because you have essentially said that you don't charge for
scope-creep...which is inevitable. i only go that route if i want more than
pay from them...such as a good nod if i want to use them as a reference or
if i may potentially use the opportunity as a way into the company as a
regular, salaried employee.

even though it is apparant that you have not consulted very long, you don't
have to appear that way to them. you need to know that they can only have
two of three things at one time - time, cost, quality. you need to be
billing more when time is an issue and they still want quality. you need to
lower your cost when they want quality and time is of no concern. you need
to always give the closest time estimate you can, but take your time to
produce quality when they want you at lower rates. make sense? always be
honest and forthcoming.

if i'm still killfiled, you're immature and just missed seasoned advice as a
result.

Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>
> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>
> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well,
> simple before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW
> there's gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that
> called me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>
> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
> and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>
> Here's the situation:
>
> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the
> project to be finished sometime in January.
>
> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
> don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*

You may be able to build it in a weekend, but what about all the
documentation for the NEXT guy who has to modify it, and the user
documentation, and the training course and manual you have to write.

plenty of hours there!

Plus you just KNOW that as soon as they see it, they will want to add a
feature of three hundred..


>
> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
> in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> hourly recruiter jobs.
>
> Any suggs?

Stop thinking like a programmer, and start thinking like a doctor.

They don't want CODE. They want a clearly described simple SYSTEM to do
a specific JOB. You job is not to deliver code, but a complete SYSTEM.

Preferably with 30 nicely bound user manuals, and so on.

> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well,
> simple before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW
> there's gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter
> that called me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project,
> right?

If you know that there will be feature creep, anticipate on it. Build
the simple thing and present and bill it as a "version 1.0": something
that demonstrates the simple functionality and can be used as the basis
for a more advanced application.

And, off course, guide the customer is his wishes. Otherwise, you end up
with a "candy jar of features" instead of an advanced, mature
application. You can see feature creep as bad behaviour of a customer or
as the maturing of an application.

One tip: have them use the application right away. Wishes that arise
from everyday use are more useful than wishes that arise from thinking
"what would I like?".

Boy, you are so lucky that you are billed by the hour. That means that
the customer will really feel the cost of the application. You can
program a lot, but that will cost you a lot of work and them a lot of
money. If they paid for the project as a whole, the only difference
would be that any feature creep would cost YOU the lot of money.
Also, this situation means that they want to trust you. Don't abuse it.

> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
> and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.

Is your current working framework something you built yourself? If so,
this sounds like a freebie. You can charge them for the use of it. In
either hours (that you can spend on something else) or plain money.

Good luck,
--
Willem Bogaerts

Application smith
Kratz B.V.
http://www.kratz.nl/

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
>> don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>
> You may be able to build it in a weekend, but what about all the
> documentation for the NEXT guy who has to modify it, and the user
> documentation, and the training course and manual you have to write.

Well, there's an idea.
I do love to fill binders.

I just don't want to give them too much more than they want, lest the
application exceeds their needs by an order of cro-magnitude.




> Stop thinking like a programmer, and start thinking like a doctor.
>
> They don't want CODE. They want a clearly described simple SYSTEM to do
> a specific JOB. You job is not to deliver code, but a complete SYSTEM.

That's what my post is about. I'm not sure *what* they want or if they
know what they want, or if I can convince them that I can give them what
they want, but that they don't know they want yet.

I just know I want the gig.

(OMG - I think that's a direct quote from Pirates of Silicon Valley!)


> Preferably with 30 nicely bound user manuals, and so on.

I think that's my answer right there - although I think one or two
binders with some very wordy screens and wizards might do the trick.