Film is being made obselete not only in the realm of light photography but
X-rays as well. Remember that little wrapped up card one held behind your
teeth and then returned to the good dentist. This now has an array and cable
direct tot he computer. Sold by Kodak and others who need some other business
besides film. For medical X-rays, one needs a far larger array for the image
input.

The commercial packages is called "Diadisk". The array is placed under or
patient and it records the image. It is later connected to the computer to
retrieve the X-ray. Like all good commercial packages, the storage formats
are nicely proprietary. The viewer software is distributed on the CD with the
images files so a doctor with a Windows machine can look at them.

There are naturally a lot of pixels, allbeit monochrome, for a full size
equivalent chest X-ray, for example. The program hung up my Win98, stalled
nicely under WINE, ran quite well in a Qemu Win98 session but sloowwww. My
PIII 575mhz was just not up to the job with emulation layers. If I had the
patience, just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ....

So ... are there any GPL programs than can read these things?


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On Sun, Dec 03, 2006 at 08:45:27PM +0200, David Baron wrote:
> Film is being made obselete not only in the realm of light photography but
> X-rays as well. Remember that little wrapped up card one held behind your
> teeth and then returned to the good dentist. This now has an array and cable
> direct tot he computer. Sold by Kodak and others who need some other business
> besides film. For medical X-rays, one needs a far larger array for the image
> input.
>
> The commercial packages is called "Diadisk". The array is placed under or
> patient and it records the image. It is later connected to the computer to
> retrieve the X-ray. Like all good commercial packages, the storage formats
> are nicely proprietary. The viewer software is distributed on the CD with the
> images files so a doctor with a Windows machine can look at them.
>
> There are naturally a lot of pixels, allbeit monochrome, for a full size
> equivalent chest X-ray, for example. The program hung up my Win98, stalled
> nicely under WINE, ran quite well in a Qemu Win98 session but sloowwww. My
> PIII 575mhz was just not up to the job with emulation layers. If I had the
> patience, just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ....
>
> So ... are there any GPL programs than can read these things?
Hi David,
Are there any web accessable examples of this format for someone to
reverse engineer? Are there any data specs for the format? Like DVD css,
are there any legal issue with someone rev-eng'ing it?
also, does the unix 'file' command have anything useful to say about it?
Cheers,
Kev
- --
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On Sun, 2006-12-03 at 20:45 +0200, David Baron wrote:
> The commercial packages is called "Diadisk". The array is placed under or
> patient and it records the image. It is later connected to the computer to
> retrieve the X-ray. Like all good commercial packages, the storage formats
> are nicely proprietary. The viewer software is distributed on the CD withthe
> images files so a doctor with a Windows machine can look at them.
>
> There are naturally a lot of pixels, allbeit monochrome, for a full size
> equivalent chest X-ray, for example. The program hung up my Win98, stalled
> nicely under WINE, ran quite well in a Qemu Win98 session but sloowwww. My
> PIII 575mhz was just not up to the job with emulation layers. If I had the
> patience, just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ....
>
> So ... are there any GPL programs than can read these things?

It seems this format is called DICOM, and a google search finds several
applications claiming to be "free". I haven't looked any closer to see
if they actually are free software or simply gratis.

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Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 760BDD22


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> It seems this format is called DICOM, and a google search finds
> several
> applications claiming to be "free". I haven't looked any closer to see
> if they actually are free software or simply gratis.

Of course, I forgot the most obvious... a simple "apt-cache search
dicom" shows several packages for this.

--
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 760BDD22


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On Sunday 03 December 2006 21:13, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> > It seems this format is called DICOM, and a google search finds
> > several
> > applications claiming to be "free". I haven't looked any closer to see
> > if they actually are free software or simply gratis.
>
> Of course, I forgot the most obvious... a simple "apt-cache search
> dicom" shows several packages for this.

Thanks for the suggestions. This is apparently a very well-developed
technology for medical networking and such.

So I tried off Sid medcon (command line converter) and xmedcon (with GUI and
viewer). Segmentation faults, probably in common library used by the two
programs. Will try some of the stuff on google.

Meanwhile, got a jpg off the qemu session. The program will not display images
under WINE.


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David Baron writes:
> just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ...

No one would use lossy compression on medical x-rays.
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On Sun, 2006-12-03 at 21:57 +0200, David Baron wrote:
> So I tried off Sid medcon (command line converter) and xmedcon (with GUI and
> viewer). Segmentation faults, probably in common library used by the two
> programs. Will try some of the stuff on google.

Report it as bugs, you can use the "reportbug" package for this.

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Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 760BDD22


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On Sun, Dec 03, 2006 at 09:57:12PM +0200, David Baron wrote:
> On Sunday 03 December 2006 21:13, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> > > It seems this format is called DICOM, and a google search finds
> > > several
> > > applications claiming to be "free". I haven't looked any closer to see
> > > if they actually are free software or simply gratis.
> >
> > Of course, I forgot the most obvious... a simple "apt-cache search
> > dicom" shows several packages for this.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions. This is apparently a very well-developed
> technology for medical networking and such.
>
> So I tried off Sid medcon (command line converter) and xmedcon (with GUI and
> viewer). Segmentation faults, probably in common library used by the two
> programs. Will try some of the stuff on google.
>
> Meanwhile, got a jpg off the qemu session. The program will not display images
> under WINE.
you could try to ask about a good and for your situation usable programm
on the debian-med list:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-med/

yours
albert

--
Albert Dengg <a_d@gmx.at>

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On 12/03/06 13:00, John Hasler wrote:
> David Baron writes:
>> just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ...
>
> No one would use lossy compression on medical x-rays.

But those little bits of noise make life so interesting!!!

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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On Sun, Dec 03, 2006 at 16:05:04 -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 12/03/06 13:00, John Hasler wrote:
> > David Baron writes:
> >> just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ...
> >
> > No one would use lossy compression on medical x-rays.
>
> But those little bits of noise make life so interesting!!!

Is that a compression artifact or were you just happy to see the nurse?

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Florian


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John Hasler wrote:
> David Baron writes:
>
>> just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ...
>>
>
> No one would use lossy compression on medical x-rays.
>
As I recall, there were some juicy lawsuits a while back - before people
figured out they shouldn't use lossy compression on medical x-rays.

Miles


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Miles writes:
> As I recall, there were some juicy lawsuits a while back - before people
> figured out they shouldn't use lossy compression on medical x-rays.

It's appalling that anyone responsible for such things would ever think you
should.
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On 12/03/06 19:07, John Hasler wrote:
> Miles writes:
>> As I recall, there were some juicy lawsuits a while back - before people
>> figured out they shouldn't use lossy compression on medical x-rays.
>
> It's appalling that anyone responsible for such things would ever think you
> should.

Remember, high-detail uncompressed files are L-A-R-G-E *big*.

Depends on how long ago these suits were, and how poorly lossless
compression *might* work on that particular kind of image, a
reasonable argument *could* have been made that lossy compression
was needed. After all, a decent-sized hospital make a lot of
X-rays, which would eat up 40GB drives *very* quickly.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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On Sunday 03 December 2006 22:56, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-12-03 at 21:57 +0200, David Baron wrote:
> > So I tried off Sid medcon (command line converter) and xmedcon (with GUI
> > and viewer). Segmentation faults, probably in common library used by the
> > two programs. Will try some of the stuff on google.
>
> Report it as bugs, you can use the "reportbug" package for this.
Will do.

I tried two from google: a KDE app kradview and aeskulap .deb package.
Kradview also fails. Aeskulap works fine.

DICOM (not a proprietary format as my doctor suggested, but) is an ongoing
developing standard. It contains/consists of various codes as well as image
data. Kradview found a new code, suggesting adding it to the DICOM database
and then crashed. The error messages were in <stderr> or <stdout>, not a KDE
dialog box. I would assume that the medicon libraries segfaulted for the same
reason. Aeskulap is listed as ready of Etch making it a fairly recent version
and this may be all the difference!


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On Monday 04 December 2006 00:05, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 12/03/06 13:00, John Hasler wrote:
> > David Baron writes:
> >> just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ...
> >
> > No one would use lossy compression on medical x-rays.
>
> But those little bits of noise make life so interesting!!!

Before I had a working linux viewer, just wanted to look at images. I am not
nor pretending to be a radiologist. Nor would a radiologist read a 500x700
pixel image, jpegged or raw, on the screen (what the windows program saves a
jpeg is apparently the screen image, not a compression of the main data).


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On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 00:00 +0100, Florian Kulzer wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 03, 2006 at 16:05:04 -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On 12/03/06 13:00, John Hasler wrote:
> > > David Baron writes:
> > >> just maybe I could get jpegs out of this thing ...
> > >
> > > No one would use lossy compression on medical x-rays.
> >
> > But those little bits of noise make life so interesting!!!
>
> Is that a compression artifact or were you just happy to see the nurse?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Florian
>
He-he. Good one!
But, just to clear things: jpeg is not neccesarily a lossy format -
although we usually make it lossy to save space.
So, be sure that you know what you are doing when you are being sued!
For example:
- He came here after swallowing a piece of puzzle.
- My dog suddenly ran in and that's his tail.
- I explicitly asked the patient to smile but he refused to.
The possibilities are infinite.

(But the jpeg ITSELF is still not lossy, but it can be made to be.)

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Nyizsa.

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2006/12/4, David Baron <d_baron@012.net.il>:
>
>
> > > No one would use lossy compression on medical x-rays.


lossy jpeg conforms to the DICOM Standard

> Before I had a working linux viewer, just wanted to look at images.

If you haven't to see series exams (aka MR, CT) display from ImageMagick
works fine (it also works for serie files, but manipulating DICOM tags is
not its best feature; cross-referencing could be a must even for
radiologists w/ lot experience, hence aeskulap).

GIMP can aquire and export DICOM format files.

dcmtk contais conversion binaries (DICOM to much more than I've needed). ctn
is server oriented, but it is based on dcmtk, and pays back in turn imagectn
database to dcmtk. If you're interested you should try Pablo Sau (somewhere
on sourceforge.net) work, who made up an live Koppix based CD (a RIS, in
fact).

I am not a programmer, neither I have too much time to spent on Internet,
but medical debian seems to be rather obsolete.


I am not
> nor pretending to be a radiologist. Nor would a radiologist read a 500x700
> pixel image, jpegged or raw, on the screen (what the windows program saves
> a
> jpeg is apparently the screen image, not a compression of the main data).


compression is also part of the DICOM standard. A DICOM MIME type also
exists.
(DICOM is transmission oriented, and peer-to-peer oriented yet; I haven't
seen to much DICOM-node setup interfaces to use anything else then "IP" to
identify a peer on the LAN, though an AE --application entity-- Title is
compulsory to identify a node as DICOM-node)

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>

Hi David,

I am working on a library called GDCM. I am always looking for DICOM
know to break other readers. Could you please send me a copy of this
DICOM dataset ? From the top of my head mecon does not support RGB
DICOM but is robust to a couple of known DICOM bugs.

GDCM is a DICOM library released under BSD license. It has been
integrated into ITK and VTK.

Thanks
Mathieu
Ref: http://itkorg and http://vtk.org

On 12/3/06, David Baron <d_baron@012.net.il> wrote:
> On Sunday 03 December 2006 21:13, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> > > It seems this format is called DICOM, and a google search finds
> > > several
> > > applications claiming to be "free". I haven't looked any closer to see
> > > if they actually are free software or simply gratis.
> >
> > Of course, I forgot the most obvious... a simple "apt-cache search
> > dicom" shows several packages for this.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions. This is apparently a very well-developed
> technology for medical networking and such.
>
> So I tried off Sid medcon (command line converter) and xmedcon (with GUI and
> viewer). Segmentation faults, probably in common library used by the two
> programs. Will try some of the stuff on google.
>
> Meanwhile, got a jpg off the qemu session. The program will not display images
> under WINE.
>
>
> --
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> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
>


--
Mathieu


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