Hi

Can any of you guys recommend anything SHORT to read that tells us how
best to do SEO?

A colleague just sent me a white paper from e-Consultancy called "SEO-
best-practice-guide.doc"
but it is *** 210 *** pages long! This is insane. I dont have time to
read anything LIKE that!

What are the most important few points...?


Ship
Shiperton Henethe

ship wrote:
>
> Can any of you guys recommend anything SHORT to read that tells us how
> best to do SEO?

http://www.google.com/support/webmas...y?answer=35769

--
Berg

> What are the most important few points...?

For true SEO - there aren't any. This is highly logical - if there
were three things you could do to guarantee a page #1 position in the
SERPs, everybody would do them all immediately. So the top 100 would
all be using the same three things - and the one to find the fourth
would then be the winner.

In truth this goes on all the time. Google state - officially - that
over 200 variables influence ranking. Thus a 210 page book is
actually quite thin.

It amazes me. There are _millions_ of sites out there and hundreds of
thousands of webmasters with - between them, perhaps a million years'
experience. All fighting for #1. And people quite seriously think
they can walk in, read ten pages of a manual and do just as well.

You wouldn't dream of stripping a car engine down to its elements,
rebuilding it, and setting off on the Le Mans 24 Hours. You wouldn't
do brain surgery on your own kids.

Yet everyone thinks they can code a well-performing web site in half
an hour.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:35:32 -0700, ship put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>
>Hi
>
>Can any of you guys recommend anything SHORT to read that tells us how
>best to do SEO?
>
>A colleague just sent me a white paper from e-Consultancy called "SEO-
>best-practice-guide.doc"
>but it is *** 210 *** pages long! This is insane. I dont have time to
>read anything LIKE that!
>
>What are the most important few points...?

Forward me the document and I'll summarise it for you. The reply
address on this post works if you replace "usenet" with "jerk".

Mark
--
Blog: http://Mark.Goodge.co.uk Photos: http://www.goodge.co.uk
"Life is bigger, it's bigger than you"

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:35:32 -0700, ship wrote:

> Hi
>
> Can any of you guys recommend anything SHORT to read that tells us how
> best to do SEO?
>
From the site:

http://legendsofseo.blogspot.com/200...y-16-2006.html

Google is Dancing
Let's watch all datacenters
The sky is falling


Heading, title, links
Got lots of unique content
Why aren't we ranking?


--
George Sexton
MH Software, Inc. - Home of Connect Daily Web Calendar
http://www.mhsoftware.com/connectdaily.htm

George L. Sexton wrote:

> Google is Dancing
> Let's watch all datacenters
> The sky is falling
>
> Heading, title, links
> Got lots of unique content
> Why aren't we ranking?

If you computer gave you haiku error messages:

http://blinkynet.net/comp/haiku.html


--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project - http://improve-usenet.org

On Oct 16, 9:35 am, ship <ship...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can any of you guys recommend anything SHORT to read that tells us how
> best to do SEO?

I am an SEO consultant & I've spent about 2-4 hours EVERY day for the
past DECADE researching how Internet search works. The learning
curves get steeper every day.

If you want to "optimize" your site by reading "short" summaries, you
will only be "selling yourself SHORT". Remember, ROI is based on
"Investment".

It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant than
to attempt to become an expert yourself.

Brett
http://seowebmarket.com

On Oct 16, 9:35 am, ship <ship...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can any of you guys recommend anything SHORT to read that tells us how
> best to do SEO?

I am an SEO consultant & I've spent about 2-4 hours EVERY day for the
past DECADE researching how Internet search works. The learning
curves get steeper every day.

If you want to "optimize" your site by reading "short" summaries, you
will only be "selling yourself SHORT". Remember, ROI is based on
"Investment".

It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant than
to attempt to become an expert yourself.

Brett
http://seowebmarket.com

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:37:36 -0700, SEOwebMarket.com put finger to
keyboard and typed:

>On Oct 16, 9:35 am, ship <ship...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can any of you guys recommend anything SHORT to read that tells us how
>> best to do SEO?
>
>I am an SEO consultant & I've spent about 2-4 hours EVERY day for the
>past DECADE researching how Internet search works. The learning
>curves get steeper every day.
>
>If you want to "optimize" your site by reading "short" summaries, you
>will only be "selling yourself SHORT". Remember, ROI is based on
>"Investment".
>
>It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant than
>to attempt to become an expert yourself.

It's not that difficult. Nearly every site that I've worked on is on
the first page of Google results for the most important keywords. Some
of them are the top entry. And I'm not an "SEO consultant" - just an
ordinary web programmer. There's nothing I've done that anyone else
can't do.

Mark
--
http://www.MotorwayServices.info - read and share comments and opinons
"Goodbye... And it's emotional"

Mark Goodge wrote:

> And I'm not an "SEO consultant"

Ahh, poor you. You can't charge an extra $50-75 per page then... <lol>

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

On Oct 17, 3:10 pm, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:37:36 -0700, SEOwebMarket.com put finger to

> >If you want to "optimize" your site by reading "short" summaries, you
> >will only be "selling yourself SHORT". Remember, ROI is based on
> >"Investment".
>
> >It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant than
> >to attempt to become an expert yourself.
>
> It's not that difficult.
> There's nothing I've done that anyone else
> can't do.

The OP doesn't seem interested in investing time

You dwell in a forum, reading everyday & learning new material
constantly while it's happening (he's talking about reading "SHORT"
summaries). You honestly think this guy is going to be able to
compete?

SEO is a long process that involves extensive research on many fronts,
time-tested trial & error, and a lot of time consuming "work".
Website "Optimization" isn't something that happens with the simple
push of an automated button (although many "submit" scams would like
you to believe that).

On 2007-10-17, SEOwebMarket.com <webmail@seowebmarket.com> wrote:

> Website "Optimization" isn't something that happens with the simple
> push of an automated button (although many "submit" scams would like
> you to believe that).

I'll agree 100% with that. But I don't think I agree that SEO is some
black art that only certain people can master.

--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com

Wahoo! Indians beat New York to advance to the AL Championship Series!
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...,5871580.story

On Oct 16, 9:35 am, ship <ship...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can any of you guys recommend anything SHORT to read that tells us how
> best to do SEO?

I am an SEO consultant & I've spent about 2-4 hours EVERY day for the
past DECADE researching how Internet search works. The learning
curves get steeper every day.

If you want to "optimize" your site by reading "short" summaries, you
will only be "selling yourself SHORT". Remember, ROI is based on
"Investment".

It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant than
to attempt to become an expert yourself.

Brett
http://seowebmarket.com

On 2007-10-18, SEOwebMarket.com <webmail@seowebmarket.com> wrote:

> It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant than
> to attempt to become an expert yourself.

Didn't you just say this upthread, not too long ago?


--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com

Wahoo! Indians beat New York to advance to the AL Championship Series!
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...,5871580.story

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:57:30 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty put finger
to keyboard and typed:

>Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> And I'm not an "SEO consultant"
>
>Ahh, poor you. You can't charge an extra $50-75 per page then... <lol>

Maybe I should reword that phrase :-)

Mark
--
Blog: http://Mark.Goodge.co.uk Photos: http://www.goodge.co.uk
"You surround me like a winter fog, you've come and burned me with a kiss"

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:28:06 -0700, SEOwebMarket.com put finger to
keyboard and typed:

>On Oct 17, 3:10 pm, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:37:36 -0700, SEOwebMarket.com put finger to
>
>> >If you want to "optimize" your site by reading "short" summaries, you
>> >will only be "selling yourself SHORT". Remember, ROI is based on
>> >"Investment".
>>
>> >It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant than
>> >to attempt to become an expert yourself.
>>
>> It's not that difficult.
>> There's nothing I've done that anyone else
>> can't do.
>
>The OP doesn't seem interested in investing time
>
>You dwell in a forum, reading everyday & learning new material
>constantly while it's happening (he's talking about reading "SHORT"
>summaries). You honestly think this guy is going to be able to
>compete?

It doesn't take any time above and beyond what is needed to write good
websites overall. Search visibility is just one off the things that
goes to make up good website design; it isn't an add-on or some
esoteric black art. I'd expect any competant web designer to be aware
of how to make their site work well with the major search engines.

>SEO is a long process that involves extensive research on many fronts,
>time-tested trial & error, and a lot of time consuming "work".

No, it isn't. It's mostly just basic common sense and the application
of some simple principles.

>Website "Optimization" isn't something that happens with the simple
>push of an automated button (although many "submit" scams would like
>you to believe that).

I agree with that, but what most "SEO consultants" tend to sell is
exactly that - instead of offering to a client learn how to do it
themselves, they offer a service whereby they do it all and just chage
the client for doing so. That's not consultancy, that's just selling
convenience.

To use an analogy, an SEO consultant is a bit like a taxi driver.
There may be times when you want to take a cab, if driving yourself
isn't appropriate or, in that case, possible. If you're rich enough,
you can even employ a full-time driver to take you everywhere. But it
would be a foolish taxi driver who tried to claim that people should
use cabs rather than their own car because learning to drive is too
hard and takes too much time. In the same way, there's often a good
business case for employing a specialist contractor to work on aspects
of website design, especially if you are cash-rich and time-poor or
you need to work in an environment that's outside your normal setting.
But the reason for doing so is speed and convenience, not because the
contractor is doing something that you can't master.

This is particularly the case for SEO, which really is pretty simple,
fundamentally - it doesn't take any special programming skills, or the
ability to master complex software such as Photoshop. It's just about
knowing how search engines, and their users, behave, and desiging
accordingly.

On one major project that I've worked on, we used a freelance designer
to create images for the site, because none of the core team were
particularly good at it. But he didn't brand himself as a "design
consultant" or try to pretend that he was doing anything particularly
esoteric, he just created images for us more quickly and at better
quality than we could do ourselves. One of the things that gives "SEO
consultancy" a bad name is the tendency for its practitioners to
position themselves as the guardians of hidden knowledge that ordinary
mortals cannot comprehend. People can usually smell bullshit, and that
kind of talk absolutely reeks of it.

The people on this group are a mixed bunch, with varied skills -
programming, design, HTML/CSS, SEO, system administration, marketing,
you name it - and we get asked all sorts of different questions by
newcomers to the group. Now, sometimes those responses can be a bit
less than generous, especially if we get the feeling that the
questioner is asking the wrong question, or asking in the wrong way,
or is trying to take advantage of us. But, on the whole, folk here are
usually pretty eager to offer advice to well-meaning enquirers.
Typically, what happens when someone asks a question is that one or
more of these responses are given:

* an example of code or design that will solve the OP's problem
* a suggestion on where the OP might usefully go to carry our their
own research
* some tips or hints to point them in the right direction
* a suggestion of some software to obtain, either open source
or proprietory, which will suit their needs
* some examples from our own experience to illustrate how we
solved the same problem
* the actual answer - sometimes it really is that simple :-)
* a suggestion that the OP isn't ready for that yet, and needs to
polish other skills first
* a suggestion that the OP should hire a contractor or consultant
to do what he wants

For most people on here, the last answer really is the last - there
are times when paying someone else to do the job is the right
solution, but, on the whole, we try to avoid making that our primary
rcommendation - and we almost always give alternatives to hiring
someone to do, as well. But, on the other hand, SEO consultants almost
always seem to respond with "hire someone to do it for you" as not
only their first answer, but their *only* answer. They never seem to
want to share their own tools and techniques, or want to teach people
how to do it themselves or showm them where to carry out their own
research in how to do it. I think that says a lot about the people who
give such a response.

Mark
--
http://www.BritishSurnames.co.uk - What does your surname say about you?
"Sing for the laughter, sing for the tears"

On Oct 16, 9:51 pm, Blinky the Shark <no.s...@box.invalid> wrote:

> If you computer gave you haiku error messages:
>
> http://blinkynet.net/comp/haiku.html


LOL some of those are fantastic!

Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:28:06 -0700, SEOwebMarket.com put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>
>> On Oct 17, 3:10 pm, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:37:36 -0700, SEOwebMarket.com put finger to
>>>> If you want to "optimize" your site by reading "short" summaries, you
>>>> will only be "selling yourself SHORT". Remember, ROI is based on
>>>> "Investment".
>>>> It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant than
>>>> to attempt to become an expert yourself.
>>> It's not that difficult.
>>> There's nothing I've done that anyone else
>>> can't do.
>> The OP doesn't seem interested in investing time
>>
>> You dwell in a forum, reading everyday & learning new material
>> constantly while it's happening (he's talking about reading "SHORT"
>> summaries). You honestly think this guy is going to be able to
>> compete?
>
> It doesn't take any time above and beyond what is needed to write good
> websites overall. Search visibility is just one off the things that
> goes to make up good website design; it isn't an add-on or some
> esoteric black art. I'd expect any competant web designer to be aware
> of how to make their site work well with the major search engines.
>
>> SEO is a long process that involves extensive research on many fronts,
>> time-tested trial & error, and a lot of time consuming "work".
>
> No, it isn't. It's mostly just basic common sense and the application
> of some simple principles.
>
>> Website "Optimization" isn't something that happens with the simple
>> push of an automated button (although many "submit" scams would like
>> you to believe that).
>
> I agree with that, but what most "SEO consultants" tend to sell is
> exactly that - instead of offering to a client learn how to do it
> themselves, they offer a service whereby they do it all and just chage
> the client for doing so. That's not consultancy, that's just selling
> convenience.
>
> To use an analogy, an SEO consultant is a bit like a taxi driver.
> There may be times when you want to take a cab, if driving yourself
> isn't appropriate or, in that case, possible. If you're rich enough,
> you can even employ a full-time driver to take you everywhere. But it
> would be a foolish taxi driver who tried to claim that people should
> use cabs rather than their own car because learning to drive is too
> hard and takes too much time. In the same way, there's often a good
> business case for employing a specialist contractor to work on aspects
> of website design, especially if you are cash-rich and time-poor or
> you need to work in an environment that's outside your normal setting.
> But the reason for doing so is speed and convenience, not because the
> contractor is doing something that you can't master.
>
> This is particularly the case for SEO, which really is pretty simple,
> fundamentally - it doesn't take any special programming skills, or the
> ability to master complex software such as Photoshop. It's just about
> knowing how search engines, and their users, behave, and desiging
> accordingly.
>
> On one major project that I've worked on, we used a freelance designer
> to create images for the site, because none of the core team were
> particularly good at it. But he didn't brand himself as a "design
> consultant" or try to pretend that he was doing anything particularly
> esoteric, he just created images for us more quickly and at better
> quality than we could do ourselves. One of the things that gives "SEO
> consultancy" a bad name is the tendency for its practitioners to
> position themselves as the guardians of hidden knowledge that ordinary
> mortals cannot comprehend. People can usually smell bullshit, and that
> kind of talk absolutely reeks of it.
>
> The people on this group are a mixed bunch, with varied skills -
> programming, design, HTML/CSS, SEO, system administration, marketing,
> you name it - and we get asked all sorts of different questions by
> newcomers to the group. Now, sometimes those responses can be a bit
> less than generous, especially if we get the feeling that the
> questioner is asking the wrong question, or asking in the wrong way,
> or is trying to take advantage of us. But, on the whole, folk here are
> usually pretty eager to offer advice to well-meaning enquirers.
> Typically, what happens when someone asks a question is that one or
> more of these responses are given:
>
> * an example of code or design that will solve the OP's problem
> * a suggestion on where the OP might usefully go to carry our their
> own research
> * some tips or hints to point them in the right direction
> * a suggestion of some software to obtain, either open source
> or proprietory, which will suit their needs
> * some examples from our own experience to illustrate how we
> solved the same problem
> * the actual answer - sometimes it really is that simple :-)
> * a suggestion that the OP isn't ready for that yet, and needs to
> polish other skills first
> * a suggestion that the OP should hire a contractor or consultant
> to do what he wants
>
> For most people on here, the last answer really is the last - there
> are times when paying someone else to do the job is the right
> solution, but, on the whole, we try to avoid making that our primary
> rcommendation - and we almost always give alternatives to hiring
> someone to do, as well. But, on the other hand, SEO consultants almost
> always seem to respond with "hire someone to do it for you" as not
> only their first answer, but their *only* answer. They never seem to
> want to share their own tools and techniques, or want to teach people
> how to do it themselves or showm them where to carry out their own
> research in how to do it. I think that says a lot about the people who
> give such a response.
>
> Mark

I agree completely, Mark. And I find it interesting, the only people
who seem to believe it's a "black art" are SEO consultatns themselves.

I've got some sites which rank very high (top 3 or at least 1st page)
for common words which are important to the sites. It's just a matter
of paying attention to the details.

The content is the most important. And while I didn't write the
content, I made suggestions on what they should be saying.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Steve Sobol wrote:
> On 2007-10-18, SEOwebMarket.com <webmail@seowebmarket.com> wrote:
>
>> It's much easier and more efficient to hire an expert consultant
>
> Didn't you just say this upthread, not too long ago?

Actually, he said it 3 times. He posted through google groups, but I
guess he couldn't figure out how to use it to find his own postings.
That says something about him and his services, don't it?

--
Berg

On 2007-10-18, Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> wrote:

> I agree completely, Mark. And I find it interesting, the only people
> who seem to believe it's a "black art" are SEO consultatns themselves.

Right. And I'm not above hiring someone; my mother is putting her brick-
and-mortar store online and I referred her to a gentleman I used to work
with who does SEO. But he's not one of the "I know everything, you must
know the secrets to be able to really do SEO" bullshit artists. He knows
his stuff, but he doesn't have the attitude. If he had the attitude, I'd
not have referred my own mother to him.

SEOWebmasterDude (the guy who always posts here) IS one of those bullshit
artists. I assume he insists that only pros can do SEO because he's trying
to protect his revenue stream.


--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com

Wahoo! Indians beat New York to advance to the AL Championship Series!
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...,5871580.story

On 2007-10-18, Bergamot <bergamot@visi.com> wrote:

>> Didn't you just say this upthread, not too long ago?
>
> Actually, he said it 3 times. He posted through google groups, but I
> guess he couldn't figure out how to use it to find his own postings.
> That says something about him and his services, don't it?

IMHO he borders on being a spammer (remember, Usenet spam == the same thing
posted to the same group[s] many times.)


--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com

Wahoo! Indians beat New York to advance to the AL Championship Series!
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...,5871580.story

On Oct 18, 1:19 pm, Steve Sobol <sjso...@JustThe.net> wrote:
> On 2007-10-18, Bergamot <berga...@visi.com> wrote:
>
> >> Didn't you just say this upthread, not too long ago?
>
> > Actually, he said it 3 times. He posted through google groups, but I
> > guess he couldn't figure out how to use it to find his own postings.
> > That says something about him and his services, don't it?
>
> IMHO he borders on being a spammer (remember, Usenet spam == the same thing
> posted to the same group[s] many times.)

I appreciate your concern, "trolls" - but the duplicate post was a
typical Google Groups posting error; I figured you frequent this forum
enough to know better.

I pushed post and it said there was an error; so I copied my post to
preserve it in a text document. It kept giving me posting errors, and
when it finally posted, I went back and deleted the duplicates. I
have no idea how the same post made it so far down the page - but I
APOLOGIZE for your inconvenience. Now get back under the bridge.

On 2007-10-18, SEOwebMarket.com <webmail@seowebmarket.com> wrote:

> I appreciate your concern, "trolls" - but the duplicate post was a
> typical Google Groups posting error; I figured you frequent this forum
> enough to know better.

If in fact someone has posted that Google Groups has such a problem, I've
not seen it. Besides, I see other posts made through Google Groups and
those people aren't having the same problems.

> have no idea how the same post made it so far down the page - but I
> APOLOGIZE for your inconvenience. Now get back under the bridge.

OK, so you're not a spammer. You're still a shill. Everyone else is an
SEO-ignorant idiot according to you. Your attitude shines through whenever
a discussion starts up about SEO.

Why would I want to hire an arrogant jerk? Sure, you most likely know more
about SEO than I do. You'd better, if I'm going to contract with you to raise
my search engine rankings. That doesn't mean that I know nothing about SEO,
it doesn't mean that everything about SEO is a big dark secret that Ordinary
People can't figure out, it simply means that you have chosen to educate
yourself, and I chose to hire you because I don't have the time to educate
myself because I have other work that needs to get done.

Get over yourself.

(This concludes my Daily Rant. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled
newsgroup posts.)


--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com

Wahoo! Indians beat New York to advance to the AL Championship Series!
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...,5871580.story

On Oct 18, 1:18 pm, Steve Sobol <sjso...@JustThe.net> wrote:

> SEOWebmasterDude (the guy who always posts here) IS one of those bullshit
> artists. I assume he insists that only pros can do SEO because he's trying
> to protect his revenue stream.

You "assume" because you don't know me, troll.

Don't tell others what I "insist" because I said nothing of the sort.
You are a lying coward that has to bend my words down low so you can
reach to attack them.

I simply pointed out that seo IS a lot of work and that if the OP is
interested in taking short cuts, "he would be selling himself SHORT".

[ If you want to "optimize" your site by reading "short" summaries,
you will only be "selling yourself SHORT". Remember, ROI is based on
"Investment". ]

Get back under the bridge, troll.

On Oct 18, 2:02 am, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:28:06 -0700, SEOwebMarket.com put finger to

> >Website "Optimization" isn't something that happens with the simple
> >push of an automated button (although many "submit" scams would like
> >you to believe that).
>
> I agree with that, but what most "SEO consultants" tend to sell is
> exactly that - instead of offering to a client learn how to do it
> themselves, they offer a service whereby they do it all and just chage
> the client for doing so. That's not consultancy, that's just selling
> convenience.

Don't assume that I am anything like "MOST" of anyone; you've never
met a man like me. My clients know exactly what I do; plus, I educate
them so they can monitor and improve their site's visibility on their
own.

http://seowebmarket.com/ethical-organic-seo.shtml